The Real Cost Of Religious Faith - Atheist Experience 696 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAuFJKQh83Y#ws)
Your videos always suck opti.
Quote from: zomniethe4 on February 17, 2011, 07:38:17 PM
Your videos always suck opti.
LOLTROLLED :P.
Fundy newb XD.
I like it.. Very informative.
Loved every minute.
what is this opti???
Quote from: Pokeh on February 17, 2011, 10:30:03 PM
what is this opti???
Your beliefs, that's what :P.
He is a guy that allows call-ins regarding religion and then debates them. May the best man win :).
Hes around 700 episodes deep.The guy is extremely intelligent -- he has the entire Bible memorized ;/. His logic may even surpass Hitchen's own.
Quote from: Optimism on February 17, 2011, 10:35:43 PM
Quote from: Pokeh on February 17, 2011, 10:30:03 PM
what is this opti???
Your beliefs, that's what :P.
He is a guy that allows call-ins regarding religion and then debates them. May the best man win :).
Hes around 700 episodes deep. Hes yet to lose. The guy is extremely intelligent -- he has the entire Bible memorized ;/.
My f00king god---
oh wait! 8)
is this what u meant by trollin?
Boxxy - Trollin' Loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdiz0k0Rudw#)
Hitchens, from what I've seen, is an idiot.
I lost my earphones so I didn't listen to it. But I've heard some of his stuff. Hes meh.
Quote from: Xrow on February 17, 2011, 11:45:32 PM
Hitchens, from what I've seen, is an idiot.
I lost my earphones so I didn't listen to it. But I've heard some of his stuff. Hes meh.
???
Well, duh. You think all logic is idiotic :). May I suggest looking for your ear phones?
HA I ALREADY DID.
And my logic is fine, yours is retarded. You think an explosion made everything. Silly atheist, logic is for Christians :D
Quote from: Xrow on February 17, 2011, 11:49:43 PM
HA I ALREADY DID.
And my logic is fine, yours is retarded. You think an explosion made everything. Silly atheist, logic is for Christians :D
"Yours is retarded."
Kewl logic bro.
http://i.imgur.com/4iBct.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/4iBct.jpg)
LOL
"kewl"
Nice logic, homie.
http://sadpanda.us/images/331090-LPK88QV.jpg (http://sadpanda.us/images/331090-LPK88QV.jpg)
GIGGLE
...Almost enough sense to base your entire life off of.
Quote from: Xrow on February 17, 2011, 11:58:03 PM
"kewl"
Nice logic, homie.
http://sadpanda.us/images/331090-LPK88QV.jpg (http://sadpanda.us/images/331090-LPK88QV.jpg)
GIGGLE
Who created god?
GGGGGGGGGGGG
http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=big+bang (http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=big+bang)
Those words too big for you? Yea, better over-simplify things too the point of laughable absurdity :).
I have a game. You point to your text and I'll point to mine.
LOL.
Actual logic completely evades Christianity.
"Who created God?"
God is infinite. He has no beginning and no end. Only that which is finite has a beginning, and therefore only that which is finite has to have a cause.
Nice try.
What created the big bang?
@Lyric:
Then you haven't pursued that logic to its true ends.
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 12:04:42 AM
"Who created God?"
God is infinite. He has no beginning and no end. Only that which is finite has a beginning, and therefore only that which is finite has to have a cause.
Nice try.
What created the big bang?
@Lyric:
Then you haven't pursued that logic to its true ends.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=big+bang (http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=big+bang)
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.astro.39.1.249?prevSearch=big%2Bbang&searchHistoryKey= (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.astro.39.1.249?prevSearch=big%2Bbang&searchHistoryKey=)
Start reading, sir.
How do you know that King? That is purely an assumption based on faith -- NOT observable reality.
Post the link validating your statement. OH WAIT -- POST A BIBLICAL QUOTE (LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL).
/eyeroll.
Answer my question, I know you can do it.
Opti, "observable reality" is based on belief too - LOLLLLLLL.
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 12:08:30 AM
/eyeroll.
Answer my question, I know you can do it.
Opti, "observable reality" is based on belief too - LOLLLLLLL.
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.astro.39.1.249?prevSearch=big%2Bbang&searchHistoryKey= (http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.astro.39.1.249?prevSearch=big%2Bbang&searchHistoryKey=)
Read. Nice to know that your life, perspectives and decisions all will revolve around a book written when it was considered an abomination to dawn a garb of two different types of thread. LOOOOL.
Awesome.
Your previous post makes mention of your "logic". I have reasonable expectations based on sound, repeatable results. You have belief based on faith. LOL.
Kelvin, the reason you haven't pursued that "logic" to its "true end" is because that would be illogical.
Har Har, I believe in an invisible man -- LOGIC!
Unlike your "god", there is plenty of observable evidence, which validates the theory of the Big Bang.
I lol'd at "3.5Billion years old" when he said "6-10,000 or closer to 3.5Billion".
Quote from: Allie on February 18, 2011, 12:14:58 AM
I lol'd at "3.5Billion years old" when he said "6-10,000 or closer to 3.5Billion".
Stutter....
STUTTER....
Still stubborn I see.
Everything you do requires faith/belief.
Now, give me a simple answer as to how the big bang occurred so I can refute you. Start typing.
(http://www.jbbryant.biz/images/bored_at_work.png)
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 12:24:14 AM
Still stubborn I see.
Everything you do requires faith/belief.
Now, give me a simple answer as to how the big bang occurred so I can refute you. Start typing.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Faith/belief is not required in an observable/tangible world. You're applying these terms incorrectly (not surprising).
Watch the video, maybe you'll learn something.
Simple answer? I laughed real hard. If you need a simple answer, then you aren't ready for the answer I'm willing to give you. You lack the intellectual capacity for its understanding.
"Faith/belief is not required in an observable/tangible world."
Do you believe that?
"Simple answer?"
Yes. I don't need to know the name and mass and quantity and heat and amount and w/e else of every particle. Just give me a simplified answer.
RON PAUL 2012!
Faith isn't required in any aspect of life.
Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.
Religion wants me to have "faith" that God is there, without any proof of its existence.
Example:
You have a box in your hand. You tell me that inside the box there is a unicorn. I look inside the box and there is nothing there.
You tell me that it is invisible. I feel around around the box, and nothing is there. You tell me that it is intangible. I say that a unicorn couldn't fit inside that box.
You tell me it is a miniature unicorn. I tell you I can't hear/ or smell said unicorn, you tell me to have "faith" that it is there.
Please explain to me why I should?
People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true". That's what they call reality. However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms. Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. Everyone is living by their own assumptions.
The earth being flat was our own convenient assumption a few hundred years ago. So no one can say one belief is wrong and one belief is right. We all have our own beliefs. No one can say faith isn't real and cannot be a basis for anything. So in essence, this whole topic is based on conflicting beliefs, not on anything else.
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 18, 2011, 02:03:26 AM
Faith isn't required in any aspect of life.
Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.
Religion wants me to have "faith" that God is there, without any proof of its existence.
This is a somewhat complicated subject ;|.
How do you know the "apple" is not merely a holographic representation of an apple?
a. You must believe the apple is there, because you see it in front of you.
b. You must believe that the evidence that suggests the apples existence is true.
c. When you breath in while reading this, you must believe that air will enter your lungs, because if you believe it won't, you won't attempt to breathe.
d. You must believe that your assertion is true, or you would not have posted it.
e. You must believe you are debating with Xrow, and that a college professor is not posing as me.
Finally, you must believe that the chair your sitting in will hold you, or you would not have sat down.
Almost everything you do requires some degree of belief ;|
This is called Psychological Certitude and is also known as cognitive certainty.
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 18, 2011, 02:03:26 AM
Example:
You have a box in your hand. You tell me that inside the box there is a unicorn. I look inside the box and there is nothing there.
You tell me that it is invisible. I feel around around the box, and nothing is there. You tell me that it is intangible. I say that a unicorn couldn't fit inside that box.
You tell me it is a miniature unicorn. I tell you I can't hear/ or smell said unicorn, you tell me to have "faith" that it is there.
Please explain to me why I should?
This is far too inadequate an example to be used in reference to reality ;\.
That would be like me handing you a glass of water and asking how it could evolve into a human.
Quote from: icepulse on February 18, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true". That's what they call reality. However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms. Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. Everyone is living by their own assumptions.
The earth being flat was our own convenient assumption a few hundred years ago. So no one can say one belief is wrong and one belief is right. We all have our own beliefs. No one can say faith isn't real and cannot be a basis for anything. So in essence, this whole topic is based on conflicting beliefs, not on anything else.
Well.. Not all beliefs can be true, as they conflict each other. Therefore one belief must be true o.O. And if not, humans have not yet believed the right belief.
Nice double post, I'm not getting at there being one RIGHT belief, I'm getting at the fact that people believe differently and there is no point in trying to force your beliefs onto another person. I believe in God, yet I don't force my beliefs down other peoples throats. But I don't ignore their beliefs either.
Thank you? I really don't care too much about double posting to be honest. Sorry Allie <3.
Anyways, I believe in God as well. I am not trying to forcefeed Opti or anyone else my belief. I enjoy debating, and what better topic to debate about than the eternal consequences of our existence?
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 02:26:07 AM
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 18, 2011, 02:03:26 AM
Faith isn't required in any aspect of life.
Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.
Religion wants me to have "faith" that God is there, without any proof of its existence.
This is a somewhat complicated subject ;|.
How do you know the "apple" is not merely a holographic representation of an apple?
a. You must believe the apple is there, because you see it in front of you.
You don't have to "believe" that the apple is there, as I can pick this apple up, eat it, toss it around or feed it to something else. Through science, this apple is known as a nutritious source. In part, with other foods, this apple gives rise to my progression through life from toddlerhood to adulthood. Belief? lol? I can perceive this apple with all five senses. Even one sense would suffice. Your god? Nothing similar to the aforementioned can be done with that fabled story. Nothing. Therefore, belief is required absolutely, along with faith. Can you touch god? Smell god? See god? Hear god? Taste god? Of course not. Reasonable expectations are based on a foundation of evidence. Belief LACKS this completely. Please, for the sake of continual argument, draw a line between the two, as there is a vast disparity.
b. You must believe that the evidence that suggests the apples existence is true.
There is no need to believe, as upon the initial examination of this world, you begin to realize that there are standards of rule that the world follows. These standards of rule can the be extrapolated to all things within the tangible realm (reality). You view the apple as a fact of this world due to expectations derived from experiences that you've encountered from day one of birth. When I first touched an apple, I didn't need faith. I simply crawled over and smacked it around then found my crib and went to sleep. Can't do the same with god, bro.
c. When you breath in while reading this, you must believe that air will enter your lungs, because if you believe it won't, you won't attempt to breathe.
Nope. Expectation based on previous results. There is no need for faith. If I do stop breathing, then science is able to determine why I've stopped breathing. No faith/belief required.
d. You must believe that your assertion is true, or you would not have posted it.
Again, there is no belief here. What is deemed truth in this world is validated through scientific means (scientific method). And, before you go stating that beliefs, thoughts, etc can't be done through this, then allow me to take forceps and wipe away the nerve entanglements at your frontal lobe region. Kiss your "soul" goodbye. You're still living; however, now you are a shell of the "deep thinking" man you were previously. The brain's constructs give rise to all emotion (love, hate anger, progressive intelligence, etc). Everything in this world can be substantiate as truth on a physical basis -- even your ignorant love for a being that doesn't exist.
e. You must believe you are debating with Xrow, and that a college professor is not posing as me.
Again, expectation based on a foundation of evidence. Belief LACKS this completely. Please, for the sake of continual argument, draw a line between the two, as there is a vast disparity.
Finally, you must believe that the chair your sitting in will hold you, or you would not have sat down.
Almost everything you do requires some degree of belief ;|
LOL. I don't know how many times I've encountered this argument in real-life with one of my fundy friends. Again, this requires no belief at all, rather, reasonable expectations based on conclusive evidence to the contrary.
Xrow, why are you atheist towards all other ways of life, save one -- your own? If you have no evidence for your belief, then all beliefs (RELIGIONS) are equally valid. Get owned? :P.
5000 character limit -- RAGE.
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 18, 2011, 02:03:26 AM
Example:
You have a box in your hand. You tell me that inside the box there is a unicorn. I look inside the box and there is nothing there.
You tell me that it is invisible. I feel around around the box, and nothing is there. You tell me that it is intangible. I say that a unicorn couldn't fit inside that box.
You tell me it is a miniature unicorn. I tell you I can't hear/ or smell said unicorn, you tell me to have "faith" that it is there.
Please explain to me why I should?
Quote
This is far too inadequate an example to be used in reference to reality ;\.
That would be like me handing you a glass of water and asking how it could evolve into a human.
So, your entire belief system is inadequate and not a part of reality? I seriously lol'd for 3 minutes.
If you still don't understand the previous post, then I'll elaborate in simpler terms:
You and I are in the middle of a restaurant (Steak n' Shake). We are having this debate. I tell you that there is a stark difference between belief and expectations. I elaborate further that expectations are based on sound observations/experiment and conclude that belief is based on faith (lack of sound observations/experiment). I then propose the following experiment with two 500 lb weights, four 200 lb weights, ten 100 lb weights and 40 50 lb weights, 20 5 lb weights, 40 2.5 lb weights, etc. A large platform is in the room that is placed on the chair, along with a crane to lift these weights (there is no roof on this restaurant [haha]). I then determine the maximum weight that one four-leg chair within Steak n' Shake can hold. I then repeat this experiment with an exact replica of the first. I then do the same for the next 5 chairs and determine that the chairs functionality (me sitting within it) can be maintained until a load of 521 lbs + or - 10 lbs. I then take everyone in the restaurant, bring them over to the final chair and state that based on the previous experiment that we've all witnessed, this chair will maintain your weight. We all sit it in and, surely, it does. I then ask you to do the same with regard to your god. You don't have the slightest proposition as to how. Prayer? We all pray and ask to be spoken to, for it to show itself, etc. Nothing occurs. This is the difference between expectation and belief. Please, don't forget it. Keep in mind, these stress tests were already performed before the chairs were shipped out to good ol' Steak N' Shake. If you still fail to understand this, then there is a stark difference between how you and I perceive the world (myself logical, while yourself illogical). You maintain these illogical concepts in an attempt to validate something that is in every way, not able to be validated (illogical). Stop being such a scared and frightened child and accept the truth this world presents to you.
I would like to see Opt and Xrow drunk, on the same place one day...with a cam, of course.
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 12:09:46 PM
You and I are in the middle of a restaurant (Steak n' Shake). We are having this debate. I tell you that there is a stark difference between belief and expectations. I elaborate further that expectations are based on sound observations/experiment and conclude that belief is based on faith (lack of sound observations/experiment). I then propose the following experiment with two 500 lb weights, four 200 lb weights, ten 100 lb weights and 40 50 lb weights, 20 5 lb weights, 40 2.5 lb weights, etc. A large platform is in the room that is placed on the chair, along with a crane to lift these weights (there is no roof on this restaurant [haha]). I then determine the maximum weight that one four-leg chair within Steak n' Shake can hold. I then repeat this experiment with an exact replica of the first. I then do the same for the next 5 chairs and determine that the chairs functionality (me sitting within it) can be maintained until a load of 521 lbs + or - 10 lbs. I then take everyone in the restaurant, bring them over to the final chair and state that based on the previous experiment that we've all witnessed, this chair will maintain your weight. We all sit it in and, surely, it does. I then ask you to do the same with regard to your god. You don't have the slightest proposition as to how. Prayer? We all pray and ask to be spoken to, for it to show itself, etc. Nothing occurs. This is the difference between expectation and belief. Please, don't forget it. Keep in mind, these stress tests were already performed before the chairs were shipped out to good ol' Steak N' Shake. If you still fail to understand this, then there is a stark difference between how you and I perceive the world (myself logical, while yourself illogical). You maintain these illogical concepts in an attempt to validate something that is in every way, not able to be validated (illogical). Stop being such a scared and frightened child and accept the truth this world presents to you.
I read it yet I didn't understand it in the least.
Quote from: icepulse on February 18, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true". That's what they call reality. However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms. Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. Everyone is living by their own assumptions.
The earth being flat was our own convenient assumption a few hundred years ago. So no one can say one belief is wrong and one belief is right. We all have our own beliefs. No one can say faith isn't real and cannot be a basis for anything. So in essence, this whole topic is based on conflicting beliefs, not on anything else.
Did you copy/paste this speech from MSN? I think you gave this exact speech to me when I trolled you for believing in god.
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 18, 2011, 02:03:26 AM
Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.
You see an apple at the end of a desk.
Can you prove it's there without touching it?
You see a soda machine in the middle of the desert.
Can you prove it's there without touching it?
Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses. This is why new science is hard to grasp and accept as true (example: evidence substantiating the Big Bang theory). It relies on technology able to pick up energy that isn't within our realm of distinction. Silly Allie.
Shut up, I can't see, touch, hear, smell or touch you, therefore you do not exist.
Quote from: Allie on February 18, 2011, 09:31:05 PM
Shut up, I can't see, touch, hear, smell or touch you, therefore you do not exist.
Which is the burdensome wall that intellects must climb when talking to individuals who haven't actually dabbled within their field (understanding the equipments capabilities).
>.>
I'll be out with friends until tomorrow, I'll refute you later.
The simple answer:
1. Definition of Belief:
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Consider this: You don't truly know that you will wake up tomorrow morning, or that you will even fall asleep. You must believe that you will not experience a fatal heart attack before going to bed or before waking up. Why do you believe this? Because of cognitive certainty. You cannot know something before it happens, you must believe it.
If you believe that belief is not necessary, then you have settled with believing in lack of belief.
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
I'll be out with friends until tomorrow, I'll refute you later.
The simple answer:
1. Definition of Belief:
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Consider this: You don't truly know that you will wake up tomorrow morning, or that you will even fall asleep. You must believe that you will not experience a fatal heart attack before going to bed or before waking up. Why do you believe this? Because of cognitive certainty. You cannot know something before it happens, you must believe it.
If you believe that belief is not necessary, then you have settled with believing in lack of belief.
lol? Firstly, I've never thought about having a heart attack before going to sleep, nor do I need any consoling factors to continue living.
...
For the sake of argument, then lets divide belief into two sub-categories -- that which is required of religious followers and that which is required for daily life. The stark difference remains. I have the capacity to worry if I will wake or not wake tomorrow morning based on my experiences (I'm alive -- I can experience emotion [i.e., fear]). Moreover, this fear is only substantiated through countless previous nights of myself waking up, repetitively. Religious belief is exempt of the aforesaid, i.e., god doesn't present itself in a way that can be experienced by any human being.
...
That being said, I expect to wake the next morning without suffering a heart attack because of how I've lived my life (food choices, exercise, etc.) Again, reasonable expectation. Notice, the word reason within that statement. God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form.
...
Lastly, again, for the sake of argument, I believe things everyday. This doesn't change the fact that your god is devoid of empirical evidence (religion). My nighttime fears of midnight death are at the very least, founded on events that occur within this reality -- death.
Pillars of stone (night time fears) vs. Pillars of sand (religion). The pillars being the foundation for belief. Your belief crumbles under scrutiny. Understand? Good.
Quote2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Iunno about you, but I'd never given myself a heart attack, thus I'm not doing it, thus if I get a heart attack, I didn't consciously give it to myself purposely.
/I can't explain what I mean correctly, someone help?
Okay, so I touch the apple, taste the apple, smell the apple, and see the apple.
I have now used 4 deferent senses to see whether or not the apple is real or not.
I would rather take my chances of this apple being real, than you telling me that there is a unicorn in a box that I cannot hear/smell/taste/see/touch.
If I am wrong, then according to your beliefs, I will die and suffer for being free.
Worshiping religion is nothing more than an egotistical dictatorship.
Quote from: Lyric_ on February 19, 2011, 12:28:55 AM
Okay, so I touch the apple, taste the apple, smell the apple, and see the apple.
I have now used 4 deferent senses to see whether or not the apple is real or not.
I would rather take my chances of this apple being real, than you telling me that there is a unicorn in a box that I cannot hear/smell/taste/see/touch.
If I am wrong, then according to your beliefs, I will die and suffer for being free.
Worshiping religion is nothing more than an egotistical dictatorship.
Well that put things in perspective :P.
At least you experienced it one time instead of never...
:P
<3 Kelvin. Have fun at work bro.
Allie. I would, but I don't understand where you are going with that in the slightest >.>.
I know the apple's not holographic because no ones invented the tech to make an image in thin air, we need a surface to project it onto, that's why we have projectors. Seriously though Christians are usually just really stubborn people that never look for the proof behind why something happened, or how it happens. I don't believe in what I can't prove but I'm not an atheist, I happen to believe that what ever makes everything in this universe work is beyond human comprehension, that we can show how some things work but we can't prove everything, and logic does not belong everywhere. I'm Agnostic ^^. The "Theory of Everything" that Steven Hawkings made gives me as much as I'm interested in knowing. :|
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 11:21:37 PM
Quote from: Xrow on February 18, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
I'll be out with friends until tomorrow, I'll refute you later.
The simple answer:
1. Definition of Belief:
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Consider this: You don't truly know that you will wake up tomorrow morning, or that you will even fall asleep. You must believe that you will not experience a fatal heart attack before going to bed or before waking up. Why do you believe this? Because of cognitive certainty. You cannot know something before it happens, you must believe it.
If you believe that belief is not necessary, then you have settled with believing in lack of belief.
lol? Firstly, I've never thought about having a heart attack before going to sleep, nor do I need any consoling factors to continue living.
Then you believe that you don't need consoling factors. You believe you will continue living as well.
...
For the sake of argument, then lets divide belief into two sub-categories -- that which is required of religious followers and that which is required for daily life. The stark difference remains. I have the capacity to worry if I will wake or not wake tomorrow morning based on my experiences (I'm alive -- I can experience emotion [i.e., fear]). Moreover, this fear is only substantiated through countless previous nights of myself waking up, repetitively. Religious belief is exempt of the aforesaid, i.e., god doesn't present itself in a way that can be experienced by any human being.
Kind of a pathetic rouse to disregard belief, don't you think? I mean, for one thing, you obviously believe the statement that you just proposed - even though you have no "tangible, reproducible" evidence that any of it is true. Hell, you can't even prove that you have woken up countless times, can you?
Because you have taken this from a religious standpoint, I will counter it. Consider every factor of your belief (?[ :) ]) in atheism. How much of it requires some belief? Remember, belief is essentially cognitive certainty. It is not in any way philosophical certainty, nor will it ever be.
Just a few aspects of atheism that require belief:
1. Darwin's claims were based on that which is observable in nature (and not a crazy man's insane ramblings).
2. That the universe did indeed have a beginning at the big bang.
3. That the big bang actually occurred.
4. That the so-called "evidence" of the big bang is not a fabrication.
5. That God absolutely cannot exist.
/5000 character limit
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 11:21:37 PM
Yet you have no tangible, reproducible evidence of any of this.
And you cannot know it for certain (philosophical certitude), because if you did, everyone would, and we would not be having this debate.
...
That being said, I expect to wake the next morning without suffering a heart attack because of how I've lived my life (food choices, exercise, etc.) Again, reasonable expectation. Notice, the word reason within that statement. God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form.
"I expect to wake the next morning [...]" LOL, thanks for proving my point.
"God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form."
Let me throw a curve ball here. Lets say that I don't have faith, I have expectation. I expect that everything in the Bible is true, based on logic and reasoning - outside sources, including anti-Christian sources validating it; the logic and unfailing noncontradiction that it brings to the table, and so on.
My own assertion: Atheism is neither logic, nor reason, as it requires faith.
...
Lastly, again, for the sake of argument, I believe things everyday. This doesn't change the fact that your god is devoid of empirical evidence (religion). My nighttime fears of midnight death are at the very least, founded on events that occur within this reality -- death.
Everything you think you know is based on belief, Opti.
The past could very well be a fabrication - revisionist history - and therefore cannot be proven. It must be believed.
The future has not happened, and therefore cannot be proven - it must be believed.
The point? Your "tangible, reproducible evidence" is no more than belief.
Pillars of stone (night time fears) vs. Pillars of sand (religion). The pillars being the foundation for belief. Your belief crumbles under scrutiny. Understand? Good.
If they crumbled under scrutiny, then the majority of the world would not be Christian, and we would not be here right now. You may believe that my beliefs crumble under scrutiny, but the majority of the world currently believes otherwise. And hey, your beliefs have never been the foundational beliefs of any society -- ever. Unlike mine.
You can stop using that "tangible, reproducible 'evidence' " bull now.
Understand? Good.
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 09:13:57 PM
Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses.
What are they
1. Telepathic powers.
2. Being me cause I know everything.
3. Variations of 1+2 with maybe some spare shit Opti makes up on the spot.
Quote from: Xrow on February 19, 2011, 04:58:16 AM
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 09:13:57 PM
Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses.
What are they
Find out for yourself (aka, self-research -- this is why you fail to progress).
Quote
"I expect to wake the next morning [...]" LOL, thanks for proving my point.
"God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form."
Let me throw a curve ball here. Lets say that I don't have faith, I have expectation. I expect that everything in the Bible is true, based on logic and reasoning - outside sources, including anti-Christian sources validating it; the logic and unfailing noncontradiction that it brings to the table, and so on.
My own assertion: Atheism is neither logic, nor reason, as it requires faith.
As for your rebuttal, you obviously didn't grasp the concept I was attempting to convey because your response was literally, a repeat of what you stated before my post. While attempting to validate your own points, you completely over-looked my own via your initial response in the above quote. You seriously lack the capacity to take in information, think about it, and then give a reasoned response to that information. Nor do you know what actually constitutes dependable evidence...rofl.
Again, for the sake of argument, lets say that there were actually reputable witnesses with regard to the biblical text. This holds a ZERO correlation to Jehova's existence. Why is this? Just about every other religion in existance today makes the same claim, that I have sources stating that X and Z occurred; therefore, A must be true (religion is ambiguous -- one can't validate one over the other because each lack EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE). Maybe you didn't watch the video. Here, go back to the front page and start at 6:48 and watch for about 30 seconds. This will explain quite a bit to yourself and what you refer to as "qualifying evidence".
Because I know you probably won't watch the video, or, when you do, you will have no clue what anecdotal evidence is, read the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence)
Moreover, if you want to take the bible as evidence for god, then kindly read the following:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm)
As for testing with empirical evidence, here is a start:
QuoteProtection from harm?
According to Jesus, if you believe in him and if you drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt you.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them...
-Mark 16:17-18
Now this allows an excellent and clear way to test the power of Christian belief. If you really, really believe in Jesus and you want to prove to anyone the power of belief, you only need to drink a deadly poison and, according to Jesus, it will not harm you.
If you describe yourself as a believing Christian, I suggest that you drink a vial of cyanide or arsenic and prove to yourself (or any atheist) the power of your deity. If you do not feel willing to take this simple test, then what does that say about your religious claims? Do you feel up for the challenge?
Cool "prince of peace" bro:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm (http://www.nobeliefs.com/jesus.htm)
That being said, I expect to wake the next morning without suffering a heart attack because of how I've lived my life (food choices, exercise, etc.) Again, reasonable expectation. Notice, the word reason within that statement. God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form.
"Find out for yourself (aka, self-research -- this is why you fail to progress)."
Slow down with the sassyness there kiddo. Did your 12 year old daughter write that or something? Keep the maturity up now, college man.
I asked you for a reason. I don't care if 6 billion people on the internet can collectively answer my question, I want to know if you can support your own absurd claim. Got it? Good ;)
To address your little "drink a deadly poison" argument:
1. The Bible also teaches that if you have enough faith, you can move mountains. The same applies to all other miracles. You conveniently forgot that bit, I see.
2. If I did drink a deadly poison, I would go to Heaven. Ooh, ouch. ::)
Anecdotal evidence:
1. non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts (dictionary.com).
2. An informal form of hearsay obtained from random sources and having no legal basis (wikitionary.org).
So its word-of-mouth. Doesn't seem worth knowing.
Look up cognitive certainty and learn something.
Your pathetically close-minded stubbornness does not equate to any lack of progression on my part.
Your lack of understanding on this subject is just about as embarrassing as your lack of understanding on the subject of absolute truth.
Oh well, some people never learn.
I guess thats why your atheist.
Sigh....back to this whole religious fighting thing again ? lol How about everyone believes what they want and in the end of time we shall see who is right and who is wrong ?
Quote from: Shadow on February 19, 2011, 02:21:34 PM
Sigh....back to this whole religious fighting thing again ? lol How about everyone believes what they want and in the end of time we shall see who is right and who is wrong ?
Because religion affects other's way-of-life.
lol, King. I expected nothing more -- purely ad-hominid. When one can't contribute to debate, I suppose its best to resort to that (If you're King).
Lets try this one more time...
Anecdotal evidence:
(1) Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy.
(2) Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. For example "my grandfather smoked like a chimney and died healthy in a car crash at the age of 99" does not disprove the proposition that "smoking markedly increases the probability of cancer and heart disease at a relatively early age". In this case, the evidence may itself be true, but does not warrant the conclusion.
In your case, the conclusion being that Jehovah exists (LOL). As I said previously -- zero correlative value.
And now...
Back to our initial dispute: expectation vs belief. Expectation is founded on evidence, while belief is founded on faith (your claim that Jehovah exists).
...
What are your sources for your definitions of anecdotal evidence?
I read a few independent definitions - all basically defined it as hearsay.
Ad-hominid? LOL. Your response was absurd. Why even consider addressing it?
I expected a response such as this - teeming with red herring.
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 09:13:57 PM
Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses.
Now answer my question.
to address your "Expectation is founded on evidence, while belief is founded on faith (your claim that Jehovah exists)." comment..
The use of "expectation" is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to avoid using the word belief. They are one in the same.
I believe that the apple is corporeal and edible based on cognitive certainty - Not only can I see and smell the apple, I have eaten uncounted apples in the past, all of which were corporeal and edible.
My
belief is founded on
evidence.
Nice try ::)
Quote from: Xrow on February 19, 2011, 04:04:51 PM
What are your sources for your definitions of anecdotal evidence?
I read a few independent definitions - all basically defined it as hearsay.
Ad-hominid? LOL. Your response was absurd. Why even consider addressing it?
Yet you want answers from me? Absurd logic -- nothing unexpected.
I expected a response such as this - teeming with red herring.
Quote from: Optimism on February 18, 2011, 09:13:57 PM
Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses.
Now answer my question.
to address your "Expectation is founded on evidence, while belief is founded on faith (your claim that Jehovah exists)." comment..
The use of "expectation" is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to avoid using the word belief. They are one in the same.
Of course it isn't. Expectation may be used given that there is some evidence based on what you consider "belief". If you insist on calling expectation belief, then by all means, there are two very different forms of belief, which I've elaborated plenty upon previously.
Before I answer your question, how about you address my own before pulling my comment and turning it into a question for myself, of which I already know the answer to.
lol...
Drink that arsenic :).
I believe that the apple is corporeal and edible based on cognitive certainty - not only can I see and smell the apple, but I have eaten uncounted apples in the past, all of which were corporeal and edible.
My belief is founded on evidence.
Nice try ::)
I asked you first.
Go ahead bucko.
Quote from: Xrow on February 19, 2011, 04:10:19 PM
I believe that the apple is corporeal and edible based on cognitive certainty - not only can I see and smell the apple, but I have eaten uncounted apples in the past, all of which were corporeal and edible.
My belief is founded on evidence.
Yes, this is an expectation. Now, can you do the same for Jehovah? No.
Two different "belief" categories. However, the category of which you've spoken, I consider expectation.
Nice try ::)
I asked you first.
Go ahead bucko.
Actually it is belief. I don't believe expectation exists. =)
And yes, I can do the same for Jehova. I have in the past, you conveniently forget.
Quote from: Xrow on February 19, 2011, 04:14:53 PM
Actually it is belief. I don't believe expectation exists. =)
And yes, I can do the same for Jehova. I have in the past, you conveniently forget.
Locked. I didn't see a vid of you drinking that arsenic...
lol...trollin' complete XD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Background_Explorer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Background_Explorer)