[Xrow]

I'm calling you on this right now. You have no f**king clue regarding my proposition of truth and its relativity and absoluteness. The two numbered events are stand alone, BOTH STRICTLY RELATING TO THE ****ING INDIVIDUAL ONLY. Yes, to you, it is absolute truth that I am going to hell because YOU belief it. It is also absolute truth that I am NOT going to hell BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IT. So your saying that two mutually exclusive "truths" are both true at the same time? HOW CAN IT BE TRUE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HELL AND ARE NOT GOING TO HELL AT THE SAME TIME?
You are confusing TRUTH with BELIEF, my friend. You must understand the difference before we may progress. Due to their conflicting nature, these two truths are LABELED AS RELATIVE. The reason they are labeled AS RELATIVE is because BOTH are unsubstantiated claims with regard to the opposing belief. This is simply a case of subjectivity vs. objectivity (another concept you are far from grasping).
Sigh. Opti, one is true regardless of whether you or I BELIEVE it to be true or not. You are either ABSOLUTELY GOING TO HELL, or you are ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO HELL.

As for mutually exclusivity, I understand this term and its implications completely. However, what I do not understand is the context in which you apply it. I still don't, as you are that logically UNSOUND.
You are volitionally blind. It cannot be absolutely true that you are going to hell, while at the same time being absolutely true that you are not going to hell. REGARDLESS OF EITHER OF OUR BELIEFS! Understand?

[Optimism]

I'm calling you on this right now. You have no f**king clue regarding my proposition of truth and its relativity and absoluteness. The two numbered events are stand alone, BOTH STRICTLY RELATING TO THE ****ING INDIVIDUAL ONLY. Yes, to you, it is absolute truth that I am going to hell because YOU belief it. It is also absolute truth that I am NOT going to hell BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IT. So your saying that two mutually exclusive "truths" are both true at the same time? HOW CAN IT BE TRUE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HELL AND ARE NOT GOING TO HELL AT THE SAME TIME?
You are confusing TRUTH with BELIEF, my friend. You must understand the difference before we may progress. Due to their conflicting nature, these two truths are LABELED AS RELATIVE. The reason they are labeled AS RELATIVE is because BOTH are unsubstantiated claims with regard to the opposing belief. This is simply a case of subjectivity vs. objectivity (another concept you are far from grasping).
Sigh. Opti, one is true regardless of whether you or I BELIEVE it to be true or not. You are either ABSOLUTELY GOING TO HELL, or you are ABSOLUTELY NOT GOING TO HELL.

As for mutually exclusivity, I understand this term and its implications completely. However, what I do not understand is the context in which you apply it. I still don't, as you are that logically UNSOUND.
You are volitionally blind. It cannot be absolutely true that you are going to hell, while at the same time being absolutely true that you are not going to hell. REGARDLESS OF EITHER OF OUR BELIEFS! Understand?

What if I were both places at once for all eternity?

\last ditch effort to convey understanding.

If you don't get it now, then a miracle must occur.

[Xrow]

Once again, you are confusing truth with belief.

Two mutually exclusive truths CANNOT be held at the same time.
Two mutually exclusive beliefs CAN be held at the same time.

I pity you.

[Optimism]

What if hell or heaven haven't been created yet. This truth is yet to still be determined. Uhh ohh. If you wish to claim inevitability here, then you deny free will .

[Optimism]

Undetermined truth cannot be absolute.

OHSHI- did I just blow your mind?

You are asserting a truth claim based on the existence or non-existence of a place. What if this place has yet to be created (may or may not be created)?



\kiss your free-will good bye.

Is it absolute truth that I will cross the street tomorrow? Undetermined truth cannot be absolute. If it is, then you and I lack free will. So, if you want to propose we have no free will, the truth is absolute. If a deity does exist, then truth is absolute. If a deity does not exist, then truth remains relative...oh shit, I just grew philosophically.

This hasn't happened for over a year. Sweet Xd.

[Xrow]

Undetermined truth cannot be absolute.

...Wow.

So gravity didn't absolutely exist until Newton determined it to exist?

[Optimism]

Undetermined truth cannot be absolute.

...Wow.

So gravity didn't absolutely exist until Newton determined it to exist?

Read my edit. I just had a revelation extending my philosophical persepctive...

Awesome.

If you claim that an uncreated creator created everything, then he can create more things. Undetermined truths. In other words, everything that exists now isn't everything to ever exist.

LOL, WOW I OWN.

King, I now revoke my entire statement regarding relative and absolute truth. Whether truth is relative or absolute is purely dependent on an omnipotent, omniscient deity existing.

[Xrow]

That doesn't make sense. Reword it.



You have a very VERY skewed perspective of truth.
You either absolutely WILL cross the street tomorrow, or you absolutely WILL NOT.
Gravity ABSOLUTELY EXISTED before Newton discovered it, and it still ABSOLUTELY EXISTS.
Try applying this to every aspect of life -- you will find that it can be applied literally anywhere and still hole true.

Heres a more simple example for you, little one:
The vast majority of the world has not determined your existence, yet you still absolutely exist, no?

[Optimism]

In other words, relative truth exists because of undetermined truth. For instance, your belief of a heaven or hell under the prospect that neither have come to fruition yet. If this is true, then speculation may occur and thus, truth is absolute. However, if you submit to me that free will doesn't exist, then I will allot you the point that all truth is absolute. So, there are two options. A deity exists -- no free will/absolute truth. A deity doesn't exist -- free will/relative truth, i.e., I can cross the street tomorrow or I may not. Undetermined truth=speculative=relative.

[Xrow]

That doesn't make sense. Reword it.



You have a very VERY skewed perspective of truth.
You either absolutely WILL cross the street tomorrow, or you absolutely WILL NOT.
Gravity ABSOLUTELY EXISTED before Newton discovered it, and it still ABSOLUTELY EXISTS.
Try applying this to every aspect of life -- you will find that it can be applied literally anywhere and still hole true.

Heres a more simple example for you, little one:
The vast majority of the world has not determined your existence, yet you still absolutely exist, no?

[Optimism]

That doesn't make sense. Reword it.



You have a very VERY skewed perspective of truth.
You either absolutely WILL cross the street tomorrow, or you absolutely WILL NOT.
Gravity ABSOLUTELY EXISTED before Newton discovered it, and it still ABSOLUTELY EXISTS.
Try applying this to every aspect of life -- you will find that it can be applied literally anywhere and still hole true.

Heres a more simple example for you, little one:
The vast majority of the world has not determined your existence, yet you still absolutely exist, no?

If absolute truth exists, then we all have a very, very small percent chance of being valid in our beliefs. Hell, we may not have even thought of the absolute truth yet, which is a strange thought. Given that the "evidence" currently understood regarding our universe, it is very plausible that we don't know this truth.

I maintain my unknowing state -- to claim otherwise would be foolish.

I agree. Truth is absolute.

[Xrow]

Thank you.
And yes, it is quite a scary thought :\ It is very possible that neither of out beliefs are absolutely true.

[Optimism]

Thank you.
And yes, it is quite a scary thought :\ It is very possible that neither of out beliefs are absolutely true.

So then why refute atheist agnosticism? Why not take the plunge into the unknown with me and simply submit that it is beyond our capacity to know this absolute truth? Religion is disprovable. Why not benefit humanity without religion? It is possible. I strive for this every day. If what you want from religion is simply an eternal life, then please, consider other options. Most likely, this is the only life that you will have. Why be against gays or restrict the rights of others because of a belief that may or may not be truth?

In other words, why not adhere to a morality that is of greater caliber than Jehova's? Enslavement/anti-gay? Really? We, as humans are better than this god.

[grant746]

this is spam

[Optimism]

this is spam

I will kill you.

[Xrow]

Thats what I've wondered about you - Why would someone who does not believe in an absolute truth argue over anything?



I keep arguing with you partly because I enjoy debate, but mostly because I still believe a supernatural creator to be the most plausible cause of all causes. I believe the God of the Bible to be the most plausible supernatural creator to fit that bill. Thats why =\

In a way it is a God of the Gaps argument, but in a way, reality points to the existence of a creator.



Why not believe in a God? I don't restrict anyone else's beliefs or morals at all. They can believe whatever they so please, and humanity may progress regardless.

Keep in mind: The United States is a professing Christian society and is the most advanced society history has ever known.



Although absolute truth may or may not have been determined, it does exist. Now all we have to do is find it :\

[Optimism]

Thats what I've wondered about you - Why would someone who does not believe in an absolute truth argue over anything?



I keep arguing with you partly because I enjoy debate, but mostly because I still believe a supernatural creator to be the most plausible cause of all causes. I believe the God of the Bible to be the most plausible supernatural creator to fit that bill. Thats why =\

In a way it is a God of the Gaps argument, but in a way, reality points to the existence of a creator.



Why not believe in a God? I don't restrict anyone else's beliefs or morals at all. They can believe whatever they so please, and humanity may progress regardless.

Keep in mind: The United States is a professing Christian society and is the most advanced society history has ever known.



Although absolute truth may or may not have been determined, it does exist. Now all we have to do is find it :\

If you aren't anti-gay or anti-women's reproductive rights, racist, etc., then I have no issue with you and your beliefs. However, sadly, there is only a small chance that you stand for the aforementioned (Kohlberg's 6th stage of moral reasoning) and I can almost guarantee that you do not represent this mindset. That isn't a god-of-the-gaps argument to say that your religion is the correct one of hundreds of thousands to ever exist. That is argument from ignorance (logical fallacy) -- derived from your upbringing as a Christian solely. A god of the gaps argument would be to state because you view the universe the way you do, it points to a god. This is god of the gaps. This is not knowable. Agnosticism.

[Xrow]

You have looked into the teachings of Hume and Kant, am I right?

Just because I have been brought up in a Christian household does not mean that Christianity is all I have been exposed to (I knew who Hume, Kant, Hitchens [and his Christian brother, Peter] and Dawkins were, didn't I? )

To address your "anti-gay, anti-women's choice" point:
If my God is who He says He is, He defines morality - regardless of what humans wish or believe it to be. If He says humans should be anti-gay, ect., then I believe we should be.
(This doesn't mean I won't consider otherwise, but it is my core belief).

[Optimism]

As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists. I.E., I step outside and will either walk across the street or not walk across the street. God isn't omnipotent and omniscient if this is not true and therefore, wouldn't be considered god. Now, lets extrapolate this logic further -- your son is born gay. It was "gods plan" for this child to be gay. He will be tormented all his life to abstain from what god considers an immoral action. So, your son slips up (lets say, for sake of argument, it is immoral to **** women). Are you going to not **** a woman all your life? Hell no you aren't. So, god gives this kid the gay tendencies to torment him for the rest of his life and if he does slip up and **** a man, hes damned to hell for all eternity? Really? Is this the god whose morals you wish to follow? Man brah, I'd sure hope you wouldn't. Similarly, "thou shalt not lie". Hitler shows up at your door and asks you if you're hiding Jews under the floor boards -- you tell him yes, because lieing is a sin. You've ****ed humanity in the ass, but you aren't going to hell. Good trade. Morality isn't black and white -- its gray.

Kohlberg's Moral Development Theory. Look into it.

[Optimism]

You have looked into the teachings of Hume and Kant, am I right?

Just because I have been brought up in a Christian household does not mean that Christianity is all I have been exposed to (I knew who Hume, Kant, Hitchens [and his Christian brother, Peter] and Dawkins were, didn't I? )

To address your "anti-gay, anti-women's choice" rights:
If my God is who He says He is, He defines morality - regardless of what humans wish or believe it to be. If He says humans should be anti-gay, ect., then I believe we should be.
(This doesn't mean I won't consider otherwise, but it is my core belief).

All the more reason for you to throw this belief aside. You are representative of the EXTERNAL moral compass here (shameful). You have an internal one -- use it.

[Lyric_]

Here's my religion..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

[Lyric_]

In truth, I have looked over plenty of different religions. If I had to choose one, that would be it. (Satanism)

Most likely, you will rage over just the name of it. Without looking into it. But if you do happen to read a little about it,

Satanism is about living for oneself. Its about giving a ****-less about everyone else, and doing what you want.

If anything, it is definitely the easiest and most followed religion. (Not at as numbers, but as in people do this every day(live for themselves.)

[Xrow]

As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

[grant746]

weird weird weird weird!

[Xrow]

In truth, I have looked over plenty of different religions. If I had to choose one, that would be it. (Satanism)

Most likely, you will rage over just the name of it. Without looking into it. But if you do happen to read a little about it,

Satanism is about living for oneself. Its about giving a ****-less about everyone else, and doing what you want.

If anything, it is definitely the easiest and most followed religion. (Not at as numbers, but as in people do this every day(live for themselves.)

o.O.
People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. -Blaise Pascal

[Robocop7ant]

lyrix is for satanism? :O

(i am christian).
all can belive that they want to belive

[Optimism]

As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

No, this is simply the perception of free will existing. If an all powerful, all knowing god exists, then free will does not exist, as there is a sole path that you can follow all your life. If there are two, then god is not all knowing and all powerful, as he would not know which one you will choose. But, because he knows which one you will choose, only one exists truly. He knows this answer years before you will make it; thus, removing free will as an option. Do try to understand this, as it is a rather elementary concept. We've gone over this before. It only appears that you have free will.

1) You are destined from birth to believe in Christianity.
2) You are destined from birth to hold an atheist perspective.

This has nothing to do with choice, as your choice is already known.

Event 1*
Event 1$
Event 1@
Event 1!

Final choice: Event 1*

Because god knows that Event1* will take place before you choose to follow this path,  Event1$, Event@ and Event! as choices never really did exist as choices -- you merely perceived them to be as such.

Understand? In other words, you are destined. One cannot change his destiny, merely walk the path leading to that destiny.

Thankfully, I doubt an all knowing all powerful god exists, as there is no evidence to the contrary. Therefore, I have free will.

[Xrow]

As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

No, this is simply the perception of free will existing. If an all powerful, all knowing god exists, then free will does not exist, as there is a sole path that you can follow all your life. If there are two, then god is not all knowing and all powerful, as he would not know which one you will choose. But, because he knows which one you will choose, only one exists truly. He knows this answer years before you will make it; thus, removing free will as an option. Do try to understand this, as it is a rather elementary concept. We've gone over this before. It only appears that you have free will.

1) You are destined from birth to believe in Christianity.
2) You are destined from birth to hold an atheist perspective.

This has nothing to do with choice, as your choice is already known.

Event 1*
Event 1$
Event 1@
Event 1!

Final choice: Event 1*

Because god knows that Event1* will take place before you choose to follow this path,  Event1$, Event@ and Event! as choices never really did exist as choices -- you merely perceived them to be as such.

Understand? In other words, you are destined. One cannot change his destiny, merely walk the path leading to that destiny.

Thankfully, I doubt an all knowing all powerful god exists, as there is no evidence to the contrary. Therefore, I have free will.

o.O.. Your being absurd. I am 100% sure I am right.



Do you believe that one sole religious outlook (including atheism, although it may not be considered religion) is absolutely true (yes or no)?

[Allie]

Opti, I've always been with Xrow on the free will shit.

If there is a God, and he knows every single path you're going to make, that doesn't mean he made you choose it.
You chose it on your own.
He knows you're going to make it; but he didn't make you make it.

[Xrow]

Opti, I've always been with Xrow on the free will shit.

If there is a God, and he knows every single path you're going to make, that doesn't mean he made you choose it.
You chose it on your own.
He knows you're going to make it; but he didn't make you make it.

This is substantiated by the fact that some 350,000 religions have been created, yet only one may be absolutely true (due to mutual exclusivity). If any one of them is absolutely true, then the other 349,999 are false, and all their believers have believed in something other than the absolute truth.

That is free will, Opti ;|. It is evident everywhere.

[GavinGill]

"I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect." - Oscar Wilde

@ Which ever post that makes it applicable.

[Allie]

That goes for absolute truth too:
Whether the absolute truth for you is different than the absolute truth to someone else, the fact remains that only one of those "absolute truths" are the actual "absolute truth".

[Xrow]

Wait.. You still believe in the relativity of truth?

[Allie]

I never did.
I just say the opposite of what you do for the sake of a fun debate.
My real beliefs are different than what I post.

[Lyric_]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

[Xrow]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

[zepher2211]

Mustyou persist in this argument over the forum? I understand you're within the rules but it's better done over pm or msn as you tend to ignore other comments then your own and opti/xrow's :/

[Lyric_]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

If you have already set my path for me, then yes.

[Allie]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

If you have already set my path for me, then yes.

But the path isn't set for us.

Let's say I came from 20 years in the future.
I know what you're going to do and when you're gonna do it because I come from the future.
So does this mean I control you and you have no free will?

[Optimism]

Are both I and lyric the only two intelligent individuals left on this forum?

It doesn't matter how many possible choices there are if god understands and KNOWS the choice that will be made. If there are 15 choices to be made and he doesn't know what choice will be made, then he is not a god, as he is not omniscient. You are forgetting this fact. This is a substantiated proof, as it is understood as the paradox of free will. It isn't up for debate. You simply lack the capacity to understand it. Let me try one last time.

There are 15 choices to make. You make 1 choice. If an omnipotent, omniscient god exists, then he knew the choice you would make billions of years before you would make it (infinitely longer, actually). Because he knows what choice you will make, there is, in actuality, only one choice that you could ever possibly choose. It merely seems as if there are a number of choices to make. This is the disconnect here between you two. A god cannot be a god if there is free will. If free will exists, then the god as you know him (omniscient and omnipotent) does not exist.

In other words, if destiny exists (god outlines your entire life and knows everything that ever will occur), then free will does not exist, as the choices you make have already been determined through the all knowing being that is "god". If there are two choices and he does not know which you will make, then he is not god. If he knows which choice you will make, then he is god, and the second choice only appears as a choice to yourself, not god.

[Xrow]

Well, your being an idiot at the moment.
Lets pretend for a second that Christianity and Atheism are the only two beliefs on earth.

YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF CHRISTIANITY.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF ATHEISM.

IF CHRISTIANITY IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.
IF ATHEISM IS TRUE, I AM CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

THAT IS F**KING FREE WILL.

Simply put: Regardless which one is true, ONE OF US IS CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

[Optimism]

Well, your being an idiot at the moment.
Lets pretend for a second that Christianity and Atheism are the only two beliefs on earth.

YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF CHRISTIANITY.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF ATHEISM.

IF CHRISTIANITY IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.
IF ATHEISM IS TRUE, I AM CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

THAT IS F**KING FREE WILL.

Let me break it down for you further. I choose to believe in Christianity day 1 through day 4032 4 hours 32 minutes and 83.999823892389238923892389238998293892892389238999999999999 repeating for infinity. I then choose to follow atheistic tenants from this day onward for the remainder of my life. This is all predetermined and there isn't any other possible choice throughout my life because god knows all this to be true before I even came into creation itself. It only APPEARS that I have free will; however, it is known by god that I would turn from Christianity on a specific date and time and remain an atheist for the remainder of my life. This is the entire point you idiot -- god knows EXACTLY how my life will play out. I do not; therefore, I perceive myself to be making choices, but in reality, this was the only choice, as destiny has already been determined as such by god. If god does not know my destiny (every decision I will make), then he is not god and free will exists. But, as stated previously, if a god exists that is all powerful and all knowing, then he knows the choices I will make every milisecond of my life without fail. There are no other options, or he would NOT BE ALL KNOWING. You can claim free will, but if you do, then your god is a failure of a god, as he doesn't know what choice I will make. Therefore, he has a weakness and isn't a god.

For christ sake, think about it dumbass.

[Xrow]

Do you really think I haven't considered it, Opti? >_>
Your being completely illogical. I've already explained why free will absolutely has to exist universally.

Use your brain.

[Optimism]

You pick up a hamburger and are deciding the following:

To eat it or not to eat it or to not eat it and feed it to your seeing eye dog.

I, Tyler am secretly god and know exactly what you are going to do, as I sit beside of you as a friend. I watch you think intensely about what you are going to do. I snicker to myself knowing exactly what you are going to do, given I am all knowing and all powerful -- I know you will feed it to your dog.

Sure enough, 15 rough minutes later, while you sat there deciding, you feed it to your dog. You think you have free will, while I know that you do not, as I understand and KNOW what choice you will make before it is made.

Free will?

NAWP.

[Xrow]

KNOWLEDGE: Definition:
(1) : having or reflecting knowledge, information, or intelligence
(2) : acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things

CONTROLLING: Definition:
(1) : to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command
(2) : to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions

[Lyric_]

Xrow, you are now confusing "knowing" and "thinking". If I were god, and I thought you would make a certain decision, then you would have the free will take make one or the other.
Thus, making me not-so "all powerful, and all knowing".


BUT Since your god is "all knowing, and all power" my decisions are KNOWN and cannot be changed.

If you changed it, then I already KNEW you were going to do so. You perceive it as free will, I know it as what will be done.

[Xrow]

Xrow, you are now confusing "knowing" and "thinking". If I were god, and I thought you would make a certain decision, then you would have the free will take make one or the other.
Thus, making me not-so "all powerful, and all knowing".


BUT Since your god is "all knowing, and all power" my decisions are KNOWN and cannot be changed.

If you changed it, then I already KNEW you were going to do so. You perceive it as free will, I know it as what will be done.

First of all, how am I confusing knowing with thinking?
Second, God is all-knowing, not all-controlling. Please realize the difference.
Third, "my decisions are KNOWN and cannot be changed." Really? They cannot be changed?


Finally, what do you not understand?
God can KNOW what you will do without CONTROLLING what you will do.



Here is a simple exercise for you:
In almost any given situation that is not directly related to your actions, ask yourself: "Do I know what will happen?"
Next, ask yourself: "Does my knowledge of what will happen have any affect on its occurrence?"
Finally, ask yourself: "Could I alter the outcome, given that I put forth the effort to do so?"

Write it down and try it. I dare you.

[Allie]

I'll repeat that Opti, you make a valid point: the perceived free will could be viewed as taken away if someone knows what you're going to do before you do it.
However, my example I previously posted completely invalidates this.

Let's say I came from 20 years in the future.
I know what you're going to do and when you're gonna do it because I come from the future.
So does this mean I control you and you have no free will?

I know exactly what you're going to do.
However, knowing what you're going to do has no effect on what you're actually going to choose to do.

[Optimism]

Wow, you two are just failures. This is so simple to grasp, yet you can't grasp it. lol.

http://www.futureperspective.com/free.htm

http://kazimskorner.blogspot.com/2007/09/paradox-of-omniscience-and-free-will.html.

God lacks free will as well XD.

Similar to, can god create a piece of toast so hot he cannot eat it? BOOM.

Read.

[Allie]

dude reply to my example.

Let's say I came from 20 years in the future.
I know what you're going to do and when you're gonna do it because I come from the future.
So does this mean I control you and you have no free will?

You're disappointing me.


@the first link, that barely told me anything in relation to your argument.
You're gonna have to try again, cause that did nothing for you.

@the second link, I'm athiest so I don't care o.o.

[Jeffalo13]

Similar to, can god create a piece of toast so hot he cannot eat it? BOOM.

Who the hell uses that joke with toast?  Pop-Tart, nub, Pop-Tart.

[Optimism]

Re-read the links. You didn't read them, obviously, as both concern exactly what we are discussing...

lol

[Xrow]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

[Optimism]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

[Allie]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

*logic is destroying me*
*i know all therefore i control everything you do*

[Xrow]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

[grant746]

it looks like you got your acc back

[Xrow]

Did I lose it for any realistic reason, or did Opti just ban me?

[koolwolf2]

so am looking into neutral views between Opti and Xrow i go with Xrow

opti says if gods exists and knows what are u gonna do thus proving u have no free will

xrow says god exists  he knows what are u gonna do but that doesnt effect ur choices

let me try to act up here xD

well if god does know what are u going to do next before u do it doesnt need to prove that u have no free will

lets go back to the start ex when ur born does god tell u to cry or keep silent

choices are made like a fork in a road/river

each fork leads to another one

god knows which ur gonna take

but he doesnt do anything  about it, why would you have no free will?

like the silent observer It (cant call god a gender) knows what will happen but doesnt alert u proving that u had free will its like letting someone make a mistake just to learn from it

You pick up a hamburger and are deciding the following:

To eat it or not to eat it or to not eat it and feed it to your seeing eye dog.

I, Tyler am secretly god and know exactly what you are going to do, as I sit beside of you as a friend. I watch you think intensely about what you are going to do. I snicker to myself knowing exactly what you are going to do, given I am all knowing and all powerful -- I know you will feed it to your dog.

Sure enough, 15 rough minutes later, while you sat there deciding, you feed it to your dog. You think you have free will, while I know that you do not, as I understand and KNOW what choice you will make before it is made.

Free will?

NAWP.

It knows but doesnt do anything u have free will unless u talk to god 24/7 which i doubt but if u argue with this if u do talk to god and he tells u : you will jump of the bridge so you dont, trying to proving him wrong while he actually knows you will not jump just making u think that he knows you are going to jump thus proving u have no free will while this doesnt happen am with xrow

free will+absolute truth is possible u lost Opti 0,0

[Optimism]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

[koolwolf2]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

he did not but i did 0,0 admit it u gave no proof that god does control us he might know that i will do something but doesn't effect it 0,0

[Optimism]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

he did not but i did 0,0 admit it u gave no proof that god does control us he might know that i will do something but doesn't effect it 0,0

I've already stated that in the absence of an all-powerful and all-knowing being, then free will, is indeed possible.

He may not directly affect what seems to be a choice, but if he knows the exact choice you make, then you never had a choice in the first place.

A paradox.

[koolwolf2]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

he did not but i did 0,0 admit it u gave no proof that god does control us he might know that i will do something but doesn't effect it 0,0

I've already stated that in the absence of an all-powerful and all-knowing being, then free will, is indeed possible.

He may not directly affect what seems to be a choice, but if he knows the exact choice you make, then you never had a choice in the first place.

A paradox.

it might be just like anticipation he knows what will u do but u did have a choice which u think doesn't exist there is a choice just that he anticipates your choice depending on your first choice like when your a baby 0,0 pwned

[Optimism]

Then god isn't all-knowing. If god doesn't know the decision you will make, he fails to take on the god like tenants he has been ascribed. If there are two choices and he is all-knowing, then you don't have two choices, as he knows the one that you will take. God cannot be equally as indecisive as you are if he is all knowing. This applies to all facets of life. There is only once choice, as it has been predetermined. This is the paradox of free will/pre-determination.

If I have a choice and god doesn't know which choice I will make, then I have free will. At the same time, god is not all-knowing, and, therefore, cannot be the god that Christians describe him as.

[koolwolf2]

what if god is like time he cant know what will happen next just like you and me but he knows what is happening every time but not in the future but what is happening if god is all knowing he would know i am  typing this not what i will type next he knows what am doing but doesn't know what am gonna do thus giving me free will he knows all just not the future and about things like the last day is because he doesn't care about people he will do this or that its like i play will at 1:00 i will play then its not future anticipation nothing can stop him from that thus giving him the ability to do this without any thing that tries to stop him because nothing can (maybe time is superior) he can tell a bit of the future out of anticipation


                          AND AM NOT CHRISTIAN >_> AM MUSLIM

[Optimism]

what if god is like time he cant know what will happen next just like you and me but he knows what is happening every time but not in the future but what is happening if god is all knowing he would know i am  typing this not what i will type next he knows what am doing but doesn't know what am gonna do thus giving me free will he knows all just not the future and about things like the last day is because he doesn't care about people he will do this or that its like i play will at 1:00 i will play then its not future anticipation nothing can stop him from that thus giving him the ability to do this without any thing that tries to stop him because nothing can (maybe time is superior)


                          AND AM NOT CHRISTIAN >_> AM MUSLIM

Then he is not all-knowing, if he doesn't know what you are going to type next? Really?

[koolwolf2]

what if god is like time he cant know what will happen next just like you and me but he knows what is happening every time but not in the future but what is happening if god is all knowing he would know i am  typing this not what i will type next he knows what am doing but doesn't know what am gonna do thus giving me free will he knows all just not the future and about things like the last day is because he doesn't care about people he will do this or that its like i play will at 1:00 i will play then its not future anticipation nothing can stop him from that thus giving him the ability to do this without any thing that tries to stop him because nothing can (maybe time is superior)


                           AND AM NOT CHRISTIAN >_> AM MUSLIM

Then he is not all-knowing, if he doesn't know what you are going to type next? Really?

i think by all knowing they mean he knows everything that is happening not what is going to happen 0,0

[Optimism]

what if god is like time he cant know what will happen next just like you and me but he knows what is happening every time but not in the future but what is happening if god is all knowing he would know i am  typing this not what i will type next he knows what am doing but doesn't know what am gonna do thus giving me free will he knows all just not the future and about things like the last day is because he doesn't care about people he will do this or that its like i play will at 1:00 i will play then its not future anticipation nothing can stop him from that thus giving him the ability to do this without any thing that tries to stop him because nothing can (maybe time is superior)


                           AND AM NOT CHRISTIAN >_> AM MUSLIM

Then he is not all-knowing, if he doesn't know what you are going to type next? Really?

i think by all knowing they mean he knows everything that is happening not what is going to happen 0,0

No.

[koolwolf2]

k so i changed my view of free will so what if god knows what are we going to do so lets say you want to kill someone its immoral right so most probably god will try to stop you but he knows you will kill him he tries to stop you to make you slip be lazy but you still kill him our ability to say no that is our free will your ability to stop gods tries of making you a good person or the devil's tries to make you a bad person that's your free will your ability to say yes or no like Allie said if she came back from the future you know the rest you still choose u cant change what is written you only can make it be that is free will

[AllEyesOnMe]

 I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

[Optimism]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

As for your question koolwolf:

And this goes directly to the problem of evil. Given that Christians assign evil to man's free will, a corollary to your conclusion is that any extant omnimax god must approve of evil.

[AllEyesOnMe]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

This applied to everyone or only for you ?

[Optimism]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

This applied to everyone or only for you ?

I'm unsure.

[koolwolf2]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

As for your question koolwolf:

And this goes directly to the problem of evil. Given that Christians assign evil to man's free will, a corollary to your conclusion is that any extant omnimax god must approve of evil.

first the quote means that men have free will which is against you
second am not christian am muslim
thrid evil in my religion is associated to the devil what ever you may name him but in my religion its Ebliis

[Optimism]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

As for your question koolwolf:

And this goes directly to the problem of evil. Given that Christians assign evil to man's free will, a corollary to your conclusion is that any extant omnimax god must approve of evil.

first the quote means that men have free will which is against you
second am not christian am muslim
thrid evil in my religion is associated to the devil what ever you may name him but in my religion its Ebliis

This quote is in response to the assumption that god is "omnimax" (all powerful and all knowing) and thus, we, as humans, do NOT have free will. Therefore, god himself must approve of evil, as we, as humans, cannot choose right from wrong.

But, if free will exists, then there is no omnimax god . Choose .

[koolwolf2]

I`ll have the insolence to go off topic in the off topic section and ask you Opti :
How is that your loses in individual pvp were reseted ?

My disconnects were reset.

As for your question koolwolf:

And this goes directly to the problem of evil. Given that Christians assign evil to man's free will, a corollary to your conclusion is that any extant omnimax god must approve of evil.

first the quote means that men have free will which is against you
second am not christian am muslim
thrid evil in my religion is associated to the devil what ever you may name him but in my religion its Ebliis

This quote is in response to the assumption that god is "omnimax" (all powerful and all knowing) and thus, we, as humans, do NOT have free will. Therefore, god himself must approve of evil, as we, as humans, cannot choose right from wrong.

But, if free will exists, then there is no omnimax god . Choose .

i dont need to choose i will believe what i want to if we have no freewill then god put you up to this but why are you continuing? god wants you to continue 0,0 really i won't  choose it like choose 1 or 1 -.-

[Optimism]

Well, at least you actually understand the point I'm attempting to convey.

We can't know the answer, so by all means, continue your beliefs (as long as they don't take away the rights of others -- gays, reproductive rights, etc.).

[Xrow]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

1. Multiple conflicting religions (including atheism) exist.
2. All individuals believe in only one of these conflicting religions.
3. If any one of these religions is absolutely true - or even if an undiscovered religion is absolutely true - the others must be absolutely false.
4. Every person that is not in belief of that single absolutely true religion is exercising free will by defying that religion.

No matter which religion is absolutely true, some amount of people are exercising free will by defying that religion.
This is free will, literally everyone practices it, regardless of the absolute truth.



Some believe, like Tyler, that free will in the presence of omniscience is impossible because if a deity absolutely knows what you will do, you have no choice but to do it.

This assertion is fatally flawed.
Foremost, this belief is based on flawed logic that stems from a lack of understanding. Proponents of this concept are under the impression that absolute knowledge (omniscience) requires absolute control, but this is simply illogical. No reasonable thought behind this notion.



Some believe, like Tyler, that free will in the presence of omniscience is not really free will, but is merely the illusion of free will.

This is simply a sorrowful attempt at denying a logical conclusion with a completely illogical, yet technically non-disprovable, substitute.

[Optimism]

Opti, we grasp what you mean.
Your just wrong.
Lol.

You don't grasp the concept, as this is universally accepted within the philosophical community. Proponents assigned to "god" disallow your free will if that god is considered all knowing. It is a paradox. There is nothing wrong about it. You don't understand the concept.

Allie's example clearly demonstrates her lack of understanding of the concept.

First of all, who are you to say what I do or do not understand?
Secondly, I see no evidence or reason behind the statement that it is "universally accepted within the philosophical community."
Thirdly, I have already LOGICALLY EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY FREE WILL IN THE PRESENCE OF OMNISCIENCE IS NOT ONLY PLAUSIBLE, BUT IS ACTUAL. You and Kelvin have just restated your single illogical argument over and over. Use your f**king brain.

You've never given a "logical explanation" for why this is plausible, as it is not.

1. Multiple conflicting religions (including atheism) exist.
2. All individuals believe in only one of these conflicting religions.
3. If any one of these religions is absolutely true - or even if an undiscovered religion is absolutely true - the others must be absolutely false.
4. Every person that is not in belief of that single absolutely true religion is exercising free will by defying that religion.

No matter which religion is absolutely true, some amount of people are exercising free will by defying that religion.
This is free will, literally everyone practices it, regardless of the absolute truth.



Some believe, like Tyler, that free will in the presence of omniscience is impossible because if a deity absolutely knows what you will do, you have no choice but to do it.

This assertion is fatally flawed.
Foremost, this belief is based on flawed logic that stems from a lack of understanding. Proponents of this concept are under the impression that absolute knowledge (omniscience) requires absolute control, but this is simply illogical. No reasonable thought behind this notion.



Some believe, like Tyler, that free will in the presence of omniscience is not really free will, but is merely the illusion of free will.

This is simply a sorrowful attempt at denying a logical conclusion with a completely illogical, yet technically non-disprovable, substitute.

In the absence of absolute control, the other half of the paradox takes hold -- loss of omnipotence. Congratulations, you've walked into yet another paradox.

It is logically conclusive to understand that an omnimax god cannot exist if free will exists. This is simply the case.

[Lyric_]

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

[Optimism]

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

OH SNAP -- god is a slave to his own all-knowingness. HE HAS NO FREE WILL!

>.>

[Xrow]

You are literally retarded.
I almost feel bad calling you a retard - you can't help it, you were born that way.

[koolwolf2]

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

i think so why not?

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

OH SNAP -- god is a slave to his own all-knowingness. HE HAS NO FREE WILL!

>.>

how come you know that you mister know it all?

[Optimism]

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

i think so why not?

So, if god is all knowing, can he change his mind?

OH SNAP -- god is a slave to his own all-knowingness. HE HAS NO FREE WILL!

>.>

how come you know that you mister know it all?

This will only make sense, so to speak, if you understand the paradox being discussed.

[Xrow]

koolwolf2, Opti and Lyric are under the false impression that if a being knows everything, then that being must also control everything. They lack the ability to see around their own hindrances.

[Optimism]

koolwolf2, Opti and Lyric are under the false impression that if a being knows everything, then that being must also control everything. They lack the ability to see around their own hindrances.

If there are four viable options and god doesn't know EXACTLY which one you will select, then, by definition, that "god" is not all-knowing. He will know your selection before you select it and thus, you have no free will, despite you perceiving otherwise. Also, if god is all knowing, then god himself has no free will, as he knows exactly what he will do before he actually does it.

Its tough to come to terms with, I know.

[Xrow]

koolwolf2, Opti and Lyric are under the false impression that if a being knows everything, then that being must also control everything. They lack the ability to see around their own hindrances.

He will know your selection before you select it and thus, you have no free will, despite you perceiving otherwise.

No evidence to support this claim, either inductional or deductional. Talk to any logical and intelligent human, they will tell you what I have.

[Optimism]

koolwolf2, Opti and Lyric are under the false impression that if a being knows everything, then that being must also control everything. They lack the ability to see around their own hindrances.

He will know your selection before you select it and thus, you have no free will, despite you perceiving otherwise.

No evidence to support this claim, either inductional or deductional. Talk to any logical and intelligent human, they will tell you what I have.

So you don't have what you claim I don't have? LoL.

It is a matter of perspective. Sadly, I perceive yours to be an illogical one. Your logical pathway is full of trees and bushes that seemingly have thrown you off the end destination.

Subjectivity is a beautiful thing. Regardless of how wrong you really are, you will still perceive yourself to be correct. The reversal is true as well.

[Xrow]

koolwolf2, Opti and Lyric are under the false impression that if a being knows everything, then that being must also control everything. They lack the ability to see around their own hindrances.

He will know your selection before you select it and thus, you have no free will, despite you perceiving otherwise.

No evidence to support this claim, either inductional or deductional. Talk to any logical and intelligent human, they will tell you what I have.

It is a matter of perspective. Sadly, I perceive yours to be an illogical one. Your logical pathway is full of trees and bushes that seemingly have thrown you off the end destination.

It is not a matter of perspective. Truth is absolute, regardless of perspective of it.



You have given no actual reasoning for your assumption of the paradox of omniscience. I suspect no actual reasoning exists for it, though.

"Reason" 1:
"If God knows all, He must also control all."

You must realize the difference between knowing and control. Until you can understand the extremely simple difference, there is no hope that you will realize your fallacy.

"Reason" 2:
"You only think you know that you have free will, when in actuality, your existence is predestined."

The first problem with this "argument" is that there is simply no evidence behind it.
The second problem is the falsity of your first premise - this cripples your second premise and all proceeding it.
The third problem with this "argument" is that, in order to think I have free will, I would be exercising free will! Now, why would an omni-benevolent creator allow me to believe I have free will while He is orchestrating mine and everyone else's thoughts/actions?
The fourth problem is this: Why would God force His creation to believe in something other than himself? And why would he force some people to hate him completely?


Finally - and yes, I have explained this to you at least twice already, yet you still fail to grasp it - there are multiple religions on earth, and most teach mutual exclusivity. If any one of these religions is true, or even if none of them are, people are still exercising free will by believing in religions that contradict the others!

An example:
If Christianity is absolutely true, then your belief in a lack of God is evidence of free will. My God allows you to exercise your free will by believing that He does not exist.

If atheism is absolutely true, then my belief in Christianity is evidence of free will. Your lack of God allows me to exercise my free will by believing that God exists.

[Optimism]

I've given plenty of reasoning (and other's reasoning) for the validity of this paradox. It exists -- you simply don't understand it and maintain that, whatever I say, these statements aren't "proof". Why is this? Because you don't understand the concept.

I won't waste anymore time piling on the evidence that has been on the table since page one. lol.

[Xrow]

I've given plenty of reasoning (and other's reasoning) for the validity of this paradox. It exists -- you simply don't understand it and maintain that, whatever I say, these statements aren't "proof". Why is this? Because you don't understand the concept.

I won't waste anymore time piling on the evidence that has been on the table since page one. lol.

Sigh. Once again you make the claim that evidence exists without having shown any of it. Typical of an atheist - make an axiomatic claim with nothing to back it up.

I pity you indeed.



By the way, I wrote out the proofs of my claims in The God Allusion for those whom are simple-minded (no, this is not ad hominid. Its directed at ALL simple-minded people). =)
But if I show you, you will simply say "NOT PROVEN FALLACY!!" to each of them, without disproving any of them

By the way, each of my premises was based on the most advanced scientific resources we have - yet you still say they must be false?

Sad.

[Optimism]

Then, provide links substantiating that this universe is indeed finite. I would take my life right now if done.

SRSLY >.>.

In another thread, however. I'm locking this one -- we aren't going anywhere.