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Keep yourself under control.

Started by Xrow, February 23, 2011, 12:32:39 AM

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Xrow

Thats what I've wondered about you - Why would someone who does not believe in an absolute truth argue over anything?




I keep arguing with you partly because I enjoy debate, but mostly because I still believe a supernatural creator to be the most plausible cause of all causes. I believe the God of the Bible to be the most plausible supernatural creator to fit that bill. Thats why =\

In a way it is a God of the Gaps argument, but in a way, reality points to the existence of a creator.




Why not believe in a God? I don't restrict anyone else's beliefs or morals at all. They can believe whatever they so please, and humanity may progress regardless.

Keep in mind: The United States is a professing Christian society and is the most advanced society history has ever known.




Although absolute truth may or may not have been determined, it does exist. Now all we have to do is find it :\

Optimism

February 23, 2011, 01:36:43 AM #16 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:37:45 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 01:26:24 AM
Thats what I've wondered about you - Why would someone who does not believe in an absolute truth argue over anything?




I keep arguing with you partly because I enjoy debate, but mostly because I still believe a supernatural creator to be the most plausible cause of all causes. I believe the God of the Bible to be the most plausible supernatural creator to fit that bill. Thats why =\

In a way it is a God of the Gaps argument, but in a way, reality points to the existence of a creator.




Why not believe in a God? I don't restrict anyone else's beliefs or morals at all. They can believe whatever they so please, and humanity may progress regardless.

Keep in mind: The United States is a professing Christian society and is the most advanced society history has ever known.




Although absolute truth may or may not have been determined, it does exist. Now all we have to do is find it :\

If you aren't anti-gay or anti-women's reproductive rights, racist, etc., then I have no issue with you and your beliefs. However, sadly, there is only a small chance that you stand for the aforementioned (Kohlberg's 6th stage of moral reasoning) and I can almost guarantee that you do not represent this mindset. That isn't a god-of-the-gaps argument to say that your religion is the correct one of hundreds of thousands to ever exist. That is argument from ignorance (logical fallacy) -- derived from your upbringing as a Christian solely. A god of the gaps argument would be to state because you view the universe the way you do, it points to a god. This is god of the gaps. This is not knowable. Agnosticism.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

February 23, 2011, 01:45:56 AM #17 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:01:22 AM by Xrow
You have looked into the teachings of Hume and Kant, am I right?

Just because I have been brought up in a Christian household does not mean that Christianity is all I have been exposed to (I knew who Hume, Kant, Hitchens [and his Christian brother, Peter] and Dawkins were, didn't I? :) )

To address your "anti-gay, anti-women's choice" point:
If my God is who He says He is, He defines morality - regardless of what humans wish or believe it to be. If He says humans should be anti-gay, ect., then I believe we should be.
(This doesn't mean I won't consider otherwise, but it is my core belief).

Optimism

February 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM #18 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:48:55 AM by Optimism
As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists. I.E., I step outside and will either walk across the street or not walk across the street. God isn't omnipotent and omniscient if this is not true and therefore, wouldn't be considered god. Now, lets extrapolate this logic further -- your son is born gay. It was "gods plan" for this child to be gay. He will be tormented all his life to abstain from what god considers an immoral action. So, your son slips up (lets say, for sake of argument, it is immoral to **** women). Are you going to not **** a woman all your life? Hell no you aren't. So, god gives this kid the gay tendencies to torment him for the rest of his life and if he does slip up and **** a man, hes damned to hell for all eternity? Really? Is this the god whose morals you wish to follow? Man brah, I'd sure hope you wouldn't. Similarly, "thou shalt not lie". Hitler shows up at your door and asks you if you're hiding Jews under the floor boards -- you tell him yes, because lieing is a sin. You've ****ed humanity in the ass, but you aren't going to hell. Good trade. Morality isn't black and white -- its gray.

Kohlberg's Moral Development Theory. Look into it.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Optimism

February 23, 2011, 01:47:31 AM #19 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:49:14 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 01:45:56 AM
You have looked into the teachings of Hume and Kant, am I right?

Just because I have been brought up in a Christian household does not mean that Christianity is all I have been exposed to (I knew who Hume, Kant, Hitchens [and his Christian brother, Peter] and Dawkins were, didn't I? :) )

To address your "anti-gay, anti-women's choice" rights:
If my God is who He says He is, He defines morality - regardless of what humans wish or believe it to be. If He says humans should be anti-gay, ect., then I believe we should be.
(This doesn't mean I won't consider otherwise, but it is my core belief).

All the more reason for you to throw this belief aside. You are representative of the EXTERNAL moral compass here (shameful). You have an internal one -- use it.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Lyric_




I'm not a player I just crush a lot.

Lyric_

In truth, I have looked over plenty of different religions. If I had to choose one, that would be it. (Satanism)

Most likely, you will rage over just the name of it. Without looking into it. But if you do happen to read a little about it,

Satanism is about living for oneself. Its about giving a ****-less about everyone else, and doing what you want.

If anything, it is definitely the easiest and most followed religion. (Not at as numbers, but as in people do this every day(live for themselves.)




I'm not a player I just crush a lot.

Xrow

February 23, 2011, 02:07:05 AM #22 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:20:30 AM by Xrow
Quote from: Optimism on February 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

grant746



Xrow

Quote from: Lyric_ on February 23, 2011, 02:03:37 AM
In truth, I have looked over plenty of different religions. If I had to choose one, that would be it. (Satanism)

Most likely, you will rage over just the name of it. Without looking into it. But if you do happen to read a little about it,

Satanism is about living for oneself. Its about giving a ****-less about everyone else, and doing what you want.

If anything, it is definitely the easiest and most followed religion. (Not at as numbers, but as in people do this every day(live for themselves.)

o.O.
People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. -Blaise Pascal

Robocop7ant

lyrix is for satanism? :O

(i am christian).
all can belive that they want to belive ;)
<br />

Optimism

February 23, 2011, 11:54:38 AM #26 Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 03:18:54 PM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 02:07:05 AM
Quote from: Optimism on February 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

No, this is simply the perception of free will existing. If an all powerful, all knowing god exists, then free will does not exist, as there is a sole path that you can follow all your life. If there are two, then god is not all knowing and all powerful, as he would not know which one you will choose. But, because he knows which one you will choose, only one exists truly. He knows this answer years before you will make it; thus, removing free will as an option. Do try to understand this, as it is a rather elementary concept. We've gone over this before. It only appears that you have free will.

1) You are destined from birth to believe in Christianity.
2) You are destined from birth to hold an atheist perspective.

This has nothing to do with choice, as your choice is already known.

Event 1*
Event 1$
Event 1@
Event 1!

Final choice: Event 1*

Because god knows that Event1* will take place before you choose to follow this path,  Event1$, Event@ and Event! as choices never really did exist as choices -- you merely perceived them to be as such.

Understand? In other words, you are destined. One cannot change his destiny, merely walk the path leading to that destiny.

Thankfully, I doubt an all knowing all powerful god exists, as there is no evidence to the contrary. Therefore, I have free will.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on February 23, 2011, 11:54:38 AM
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 02:07:05 AM
Quote from: Optimism on February 23, 2011, 01:46:43 AM
As for god and your religion, I'll make a final blow here. If god exists, free will does not, as absolute truth exists.

No no no!
Simply by you and me believing contradictory beliefs is proof that free will exists in the presence of absolute truth.

Let me put it in another way:
1. If Christianity is the absolute truth, then your disbelief in it is free will.
2. If Atheism is the absolute truth, then my disbelief in it is free will.

Either way, free will exists.

No, this is simply the perception of free will existing. If an all powerful, all knowing god exists, then free will does not exist, as there is a sole path that you can follow all your life. If there are two, then god is not all knowing and all powerful, as he would not know which one you will choose. But, because he knows which one you will choose, only one exists truly. He knows this answer years before you will make it; thus, removing free will as an option. Do try to understand this, as it is a rather elementary concept. We've gone over this before. It only appears that you have free will.

1) You are destined from birth to believe in Christianity.
2) You are destined from birth to hold an atheist perspective.

This has nothing to do with choice, as your choice is already known.

Event 1*
Event 1$
Event 1@
Event 1!

Final choice: Event 1*

Because god knows that Event1* will take place before you choose to follow this path,  Event1$, Event@ and Event! as choices never really did exist as choices -- you merely perceived them to be as such.

Understand? In other words, you are destined. One cannot change his destiny, merely walk the path leading to that destiny.

Thankfully, I doubt an all knowing all powerful god exists, as there is no evidence to the contrary. Therefore, I have free will.

o.O.. Your being absurd. I am 100% sure I am right.




Do you believe that one sole religious outlook (including atheism, although it may not be considered religion) is absolutely true (yes or no)?

Allie

Opti, I've always been with Xrow on the free will shit.

If there is a God, and he knows every single path you're going to make, that doesn't mean he made you choose it.
You chose it on your own.
He knows you're going to make it; but he didn't make you make it.

Xrow

Quote from: Allie on February 23, 2011, 08:58:11 PM
Opti, I've always been with Xrow on the free will shit.

If there is a God, and he knows every single path you're going to make, that doesn't mean he made you choose it.
You chose it on your own.
He knows you're going to make it; but he didn't make you make it.

This is substantiated by the fact that some 350,000 religions have been created, yet only one may be absolutely true (due to mutual exclusivity). If any one of them is absolutely true, then the other 349,999 are false, and all their believers have believed in something other than the absolute truth.

That is free will, Opti ;|. It is evident everywhere.

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