1. Do you have any arguments as to why a creator cannot exist?
2. If a creator does not exist, how did everything get here?
you two take this out side, everybody else are not intrested.
Quote from: grant746 on February 21, 2011, 08:07:54 PM
you two take this out side, everybody else are not intrested.
Then don't come into their treads reading it...
Some of it is interesting to read, except for the monstrous walls of text lol.
Quote from: Xrow on February 21, 2011, 08:03:24 PM
1. Do you have any arguments as to why a creator cannot exist?
2. If a creator does not exist, how did everything get here?
1) I don't have any arguments why a creator may not exist, if this creator is not associated with a religion. However, as for a creator associated with any religion -- it is simply impossible given the logical contradictions within text and perceived reality (other religions). As for the nature of this creator -- I have plenty of characteristics that I can assign this possible creator if he does exist based on the state-of-affairs within this world.
Firstly, he is not omnipotent if associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossibility, but I'll humor you).
Secondly, he is not omniscient associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossiblity, but I'll humor you).
(For the above two statements, you'll have to review our previous chats, as I'm not interested in spieling about why this is true all over again.)
Thirdly, he is an maleficent creator, as suffering pervades throughout this world, whether this being is associated with a religion or it is not.
Fourthly -- a creator doesn't necessarily have to be what you perceive it to be. Einstein simply believed in a Spinoza -- nature was all there was, aka, the closest thing to a god imaginable. There are countless other possibilities and ideas as to what this being may represent. It could be anything.
Lastly, one most not forget, a being may not exist at all. If I were a god, things would be different. Vastly different.
http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html (http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html) ===> Einstein's thoughts on religion, countering lies about himself regarding this topic.
2) This is an unidentified answer. One cannot jump the gap from not knowing to knowing. This is illogical. The answer, at this point is, no one knows. Again, you can perceive this statement in whatever for you wish. I understand that it is subjective and relative truth. However, I gauge my truth based on evidence -- as there is none to the contrary, I maintain this statement and will till evidence is denoted, forcing myself to claim otherwise.
Quote from: Optimism on February 21, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Quote from: Xrow on February 21, 2011, 08:03:24 PM
1. Do you have any arguments as to why a creator cannot exist?
2. If a creator does not exist, how did everything get here?
1) I don't have any arguments why a creator may not exist Thats what I thought >_>., if this creator is not associated with a religion. However, as for a creator associated with any religion -- it is simply impossible given the logical contradictions within text and perceived reality (other religions) Give a few examples of these "logical contradictions?". As for the nature of this creator -- I have plenty of characteristics that I can assign this possible creator if he does exist based on the state-of-affairs within this world.
Firstly, he is not omnipotent if associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossibility, but I'll humor you).
Lets say Christianity is the only religion - now do you believe it possible?
Secondly, he is not omniscient associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossiblity, but I'll humor you).
Lets say Christianity is the only religion - now do you believe it possible?
(For the above two statements, you'll have to review our previous chats, as I'm not interested in spieling about why this is true all over again.) If they did not sway me the first time, I doubt they will sway me now.
Thirdly, he is a maleficent creator, as suffering pervades throughout this world, whether this being is associated with a religion or it is not.
Why?
Because He permits evil - the only alternative to Himself?
Would it not be evil to destroy evil?
Good is nothing if not for the freedom to choose it.
Fourthly -- a creator doesn't necessarily have to be what you perceive it to be. Einstein simply believed in a Spinoza -- nature was all there was, aka, the closest thing to a god imaginable. There are countless other possibilities and ideas as to what this being may represent. It could be anything.
But there are certain things He absolutely must be.
Lastly, one most not forget, a being may not exist at all. If I were a god, things would be different. Vastly different.
http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html (http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html) ===> Einstein's thoughts on religion, countering lies about himself regarding this topic.
2) This is an unidentified answer. One cannot jump the gap from not knowing to knowing. This is illogical. The answer, at this point is, no one knows. Again, you can perceive this statement in whatever for you wish. I understand that it is subjective and relative truth. However, I gauge my truth based on evidence -- as there is none to the contrary, I maintain this statement and will till evidence is denoted, forcing myself to claim otherwise.
But you obviously believe that a supernatural explanation is impossible.
So basically you believe it to be anything BUT a creator (currently the most logical answer).
There is no proof that a God DOESN'T exist. There is no proof that a God DOES exist, even though this is currently the most logical answer for the existence of everything.
Yet you choose to believe one doesn't as if your life depended on it.
Makes sense.
@Everyone else: If you don't like our discussions, then either stop reading them or suggest a debate section be implemented. Kthx.
Quote from: Xrow on February 21, 2011, 11:17:35 PM
Quote from: Optimism on February 21, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Quote from: Xrow on February 21, 2011, 08:03:24 PM
1. Do you have any arguments as to why a creator cannot exist?
2. If a creator does not exist, how did everything get here?
1) I don't have any arguments why a creator may not exist Thats what I thought >_>. Similarly, you have no argument in validation of its existence, for if you did, I would have one against its existence (a god not associated with religion, of course) if this creator is not associated with a religion. However, as for a creator associated with any religion -- it is simply impossible given the logical contradictions within text and perceived reality (other religions) Give a few examples of these "logical contradictions?". As for the nature of this creator -- I have plenty of characteristics that I can assign this possible creator if he does exist based on the state-of-affairs within this world.
Firstly, he is not omnipotent if associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossibility, but I'll humor you).
Lets say Christianity is the only religion - now do you believe it possible? This is possible if a religion is not associated with the god, I believe.
Secondly, he is not omniscient associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossiblity, but I'll humor you).
Lets say Christianity is the only religion - now do you believe it possible? Similar to the above.
(For the above two statements, you'll have to review our previous chats, as I'm not interested in spieling about why this is true all over again.) If they did not sway me the first time, I doubt they will sway me now.
Thirdly, he is a maleficent creator, as suffering pervades throughout this world, whether this being is associated with a religion or it is not.
Why?
Because He permits evil - the only alternative to Himself?
Would it not be evil to destroy evil?
Good is nothing if not for the freedom to choose it.
Regardless if there is something to parallel good with, the actions and feelings remain simply what they are -- "insert word here" actions and feelings. A state of evil doesn't have to exist. Individuals do not have to suffer for some ill-conceived hidden benefit. This is absurd.
Fourthly -- a creator doesn't necessarily have to be what you perceive it to be. Einstein simply believed in a Spinoza -- nature was all there was, aka, the closest thing to a god imaginable. There are countless other possibilities and ideas as to what this being may represent. It could be anything.
But there are certain things He absolutely must be.
Your knowledge is finite; therefore, you cannot make a statement of what he absolutely must or must not be. Its simply infinitely variable.
Lastly, one most not forget, a being may not exist at all. If I were a god, things would be different. Vastly different.
http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html (http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html) ===> Einstein's thoughts on religion, countering lies about himself regarding this topic.
2) This is an unidentified answer. One cannot jump the gap from not knowing to knowing. This is illogical. The answer, at this point is, no one knows. Again, you can perceive this statement in whatever for you wish. I understand that it is subjective and relative truth. However, I gauge my truth based on evidence -- as there is none to the contrary, I maintain this statement and will till evidence is denoted, forcing myself to claim otherwise.
But you obviously believe that a supernatural explanation is impossible.
So basically you believe it to be anything BUT a creator (currently the most logical answer).
No...holy shit did you read my statement? One cannot claim either position -- it is an impossibility. Anything is possible (equal probability). There is a lack of evidence completely, so logic doesn't apply here...
QuoteThere is no proof that a God DOESN'T exist. There is no proof that a God DOES exist, even though this is currently the most logical answer for the existence of everything.
Yet you choose to believe one doesn't as if your life depended on it.
Makes sense.[/color]
I choose to believe a god doesn't exist in association with select religion. As to why I pursue this topic -- select sub-sets of populations within society are being denied their human rights via the majority (the christian, conservative right). I'll fight them till the day I die.
@Everyone else: If you don't like our discussions, then either stop reading them or suggest a debate section be implemented. Kthx.
Agreed ^.^.
Quote from: Optimism on February 21, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Quote from: Xrow on February 21, 2011, 08:03:24 PM
1. Do you have any arguments as to why a creator cannot exist?
2. If a creator does not exist, how did everything get here?
1) I don't have any arguments why a creator may not exist, if this creator is not associated with a religion. However, as for a creator associated with any religion -- it is simply impossible given the logical contradictions within text and perceived reality (other religions). As for the nature of this creator -- I have plenty of characteristics that I can assign this possible creator if he does exist based on the state-of-affairs within this world.
Firstly, he is not omnipotent if associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossibility, but I'll humor you).
Secondly, he is not omniscient associated with a religion (contradiction in text -- an already stated impossiblity, but I'll humor you).
(For the above two statements, you'll have to review our previous chats, as I'm not interested in spieling about why this is true all over again.)
Thirdly, he is an maleficent creator, as suffering pervades throughout this world, whether this being is associated with a religion or it is not.
Fourthly -- a creator doesn't necessarily have to be what you perceive it to be. Einstein simply believed in a Spinoza -- nature was all there was, aka, the closest thing to a god imaginable. There are countless other possibilities and ideas as to what this being may represent. It could be anything.
Lastly, one most not forget, a being may not exist at all. If I were a god, things would be different. Vastly different.
http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html (http://www.relativitybook.com/resources/Einstein_religion.html) ===> Einstein's thoughts on religion, countering lies about himself regarding this topic.
2) This is an unidentified answer. One cannot jump the gap from not knowing to knowing. This is illogical. The answer, at this point is, no one knows. Again, you can perceive this statement in whatever for you wish. I understand that it is subjective and relative truth. However, I gauge my truth based on evidence -- as there is none to the contrary, I maintain this statement and will till evidence is denoted, forcing myself to claim otherwise.
Dude.
Spell check.
Use it.
This is generally not on topic but has something to do about this that I want you to read.
Atheism has enough proof currently that god doesn't exist because no christian has proven he does exist. If Christians can prove god exists then atheism will crumble.
Think about this, if god was to show him self out in public are just do some thing unrealistic to prove he exists, that basically forces us to take away are choice of not believing in god. If god was real all the other believers in other religion including atheists will start to think their god(s) was fake and it can cause chaos in the world. Also the fact if they know god exists like I said they will be forced to be spending their lives to god for a better life after they die, and if they don't then will know what will happen.
What if all or some of the gods exist today but the christian god wants to seam like he is the only one. If he shows him self causing the other religions to not believe in theirs there god(s) their "god(s)" will make their move just think what would happen if two are more god(s) where to fight.
So you never know maybe the god(s) went their separate ways and each has their own heaven and hell, and it is up to the people to decide where and who to go to depending on what they believe.
And then there is atheism who don't believe in anything and just lives and dies, the end.
At this point in time no one can prove anything so what we get is endless fights on both sides. But you never know maybe all this fighting could give us some knowledge.
Quote from: Rossbach on February 21, 2011, 11:38:42 PM
This is generally not on topic but has something to do about this that I want you to read.
Atheism has enough proof currently that god doesn't exist because no christian has proven he does exist. If Christians can prove god exists then atheism will crumble.
Think about this, if god was to show him self out in public are just do some thing unrealistic to prove he exists, that basically forces us to take away are choice of not believing in god. If god was real all the other believers in other religion including atheists will start to think their god(s) was fake and it can cause chaos in the world. Also the fact if they know god exists like I said they will be forced to be spending their lives to god for a better life after they die, and if they don't then will know what will happen.
What if all or some of the gods exist today but the christian god wants to seam like he is the only one. If he shows him self causing the other religions to not believe in theirs there god(s) their "god(s)" will make their move just think what would happen if two are more god(s) where to fight.
So you never know maybe the god(s) went their separate ways and each has their own heaven and hell, and it is up to the people to decide where and who to go to depending on what they believe.
And then there is atheism who don't believe in anything and just lives and dies, the end.
At this point in time no one can prove anything so what we get is endless fights on both sides. But you never know maybe all this fighting could give us some knowledge.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If an individual can propose such a belief with the lack of evidence, then I can refute it without evidence as well.
Well put Ross.
Christians have as much proof that God does exist as atheists have that He doesn't.
And Opti, how can evil not exist to some degree?
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 12:21:13 AM
Christians have as much proof that God does exist as atheists have that He doesn't.
And Opti, how can evil not exist to some degree?
Evil will always pervade itself in some form -- or at least, what is perceived as evil. Muslims blowing themselves up for the sake of Allah is considered peaceful, while us living our lives defying Allah is considered Evil. Again, evil is subjectively defined, but I tend to draw the line at no harm, no foul.
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.htmlhttp://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html (http://boutcheetah.zylongaming.com/index.php/topic,8981.0.html)
Not taking sides, just saw this in a demotivational poster a couple days ago. Of course, I thought of you two.
(http://www.empexi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/epicurus.jpg?w=300)
/nothatingonxrow
Your looking skin-deep into the subject.
Consider this:
God sees blatant evil all over the earth.
He sees some believing in him, and some disbelieving.
He sees sin and evil on both sides.
He thinks, "Why, I'll just destroy all the evil in the world, and everything will be all better!"
So He does just that - with a snap of his fingers, everything that could be defined as evil disappears.
Now the people that believed in Him (me) are rejoicing, overflowing with happiness and praises.
But the people that didn't believe in Him (you) hate what has been done, because now they have no other choice but to believe in God.
Their freedom has been taken by the creator, and they resent Him for it.
So tell me.. Has evil truly been destroyed?
Quote from: Jeffalo13 on February 22, 2011, 12:28:41 AM
Not taking sides, just saw this in a demotivational poster a couple days ago. Of course, I thought of you two.
(http://www.empexi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/epicurus.jpg?w=300)
/nothatingonxrow
I've got that quote memorized, actually. That quote is what originally prompted me to explore the subject of evil
Quote from: Jeffalo13 on February 22, 2011, 12:28:41 AM
Not taking sides, just saw this in a demotivational poster a couple days ago. Of course, I thought of you two.
(http://www.empexi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/epicurus.jpg?w=300)
/nothatingonxrow
Saw this a few months ago. Beautiful. Someone give this man's grammar police title back, for he bringeth the verbal wrath of Epicurus!
King, seriously? If that happened, I would get on my knees and work my thang for all eternity on god. Sadly, this isn't the case. You act as if I don't want to believe. If evidence were there, I would believe unquestionably; however, it is not. My logical self doesn't permit me to believe in something that hasn't been substantiated through evidence.
Answer the question.
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 12:36:24 AM
Answer the question.
If got extinguished jealousy, sorrow, sadness and all other confounding negative emotions that prompt ill-contempt of feeling and atrocity through action, then yes.
Keep in mind that some would believe God to be a controlling, malicious dictator. They spent their lives not wanting to believe in God, and now they have no other choice.
Do you not call that evil?
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 12:41:21 AM
Keep in mind that some would believe God to be a controlling, malicious dictator. They spent their lives not wanting to believe in God, and now they have no other choice.
Do you not call that evil?
If all the aforementioned is extinguished, then he is not malicious. Nor would he be consider a dictator (lets make an addition), as he would stave his hand of control entirely -- peace and low would be innate (no capacity for hate/evil). Who would deny unrestricted happiness and love for all eternity? No one would consider that malicious/controlling.
You are so stubborn >_>.
Those who hate God (such as Christopher Hitchens) would be FORCED TO ACCEPT HIM. Their FREE WILL would be REVOKED without their approval.
Although your too stubborn to admit it, that is what makes an absolutist dictator. Many would believe Him to be evil.
Quote from: Optimism on February 22, 2011, 12:37:25 AM
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 12:36:24 AM
Answer the question.
If got extinguished jealousy, sorrow, sadness and all other confounding negative emotions that prompt ill-contempt of feeling and atrocity through action, then yes.
dude whats wrong with you today
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 12:50:29 AM
You are so stubborn >_>.
Those who hate God (such as Christopher Hitchens) would be FORCED TO ACCEPT HIM. Their FREE WILL would be REVOKED without their approval.
Although your too stubborn to admit it, that is what makes an absolutist dictator. Many would believe Him to be evil.
As I stated, all negative emotions wouldn't be possible. What aren't you understanding? The capacity to hate, envy, etc. would not exist; therefore, evil would not exist. Christ child...
Hypothetically, if I were god, this is how things would be -- complete equality would exist, no disease, no hunger, no negative affect, which would result in negative actions. And because of this, I would be a much better god than the one whose banana you claim to suck.
@ Allie: I'm only human D:.
I understand >_>. The ACT[/u] of their removal would be malevolent.
Quote from: Xrow on February 22, 2011, 09:44:46 PM
I understand >_>. The ACT[/u] of their removal would be malevolent.
They never existed in the first place :).
Then why did Epicurus ask what he did?
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 12:11:40 AM
Then why did Epicurus ask what he did?
And the logical pitfall. This is my world; my decisions; my results. I am the god. Because I am now god, I will do a hell of alot better job than whatever the **** you consider to be one. Period.
LOL?
You can't even make a cell, yet God has made trillions upon trillions in a very short amount of time.
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 12:18:07 AM
LOL?
You can't even make a cell, yet God has made trillions upon trillions in a very short amount of time.
Holy shit. Cells are constructed within labs EVERY ****ing day. Are you serious? Abiogenesis -- it happened. You lack the propensity to make such a claim, clearly.
Quote from: Xrow on February 23, 2011, 12:18:07 AM
LOL?
You can't even make a cell, yet God has made trillions upon trillions in a very short amount of time.
Prove it