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Oh King...

Started by Optimism, January 01, 2011, 02:08:10 AM

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Optimism

In light of your "omfg that is an amazing quote" -- I propose the following read:

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/what-every-atheist-should-say-to-god%E2%80%A6-if-judgment-day-actually-happens

**** you god. **** you.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

zomniethe4

Thought atheist don't believe in god.

Zom

Optimism

Quote from: zomniethe4 on January 01, 2011, 02:10:36 AM
Thought atheist don't believe in god.

"Hypoxia induced coma."
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

zomniethe4


Zom

Allie

Allie is an atheist, thus comments on this issue.

Optimism

Quote from: Allie on January 01, 2011, 07:17:32 AM
Allie is an atheist, thus comments on this issue.

Yay XD.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Pokeh


Xrow

I'll read it when I have time.
Your atheism reminded of of this quote, though:

"God is dead." -Nietzsche
Nietzsche is a famous ATHEIST.
GOD is dead?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
LOL?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?

Xrow

Hopefully I'll learn something reasonable.

"But what if you're wrong?" So goes the common questions posed to atheists by Christians. Putting aside for a moment the obvious retort (what if they are wrong and another religion is right?) I decided to really organize my thoughts a bit. What would I say if I was wrong, the Christians were right, and a moment after dying I found myself before the blinding majesty of Yahweh with Christ at his right hand? Actually, this is a fair question.
Atheists: If your right, cool, you become a tree. If your wrong, you go to hell.
Christians: If your right, cool, you are handed eternal perfection under a perfect God in heaven. If your wrong, you fall to the same fate as the atheists.
Who has more to lose?



Oh. Oh dear. I see. Well, I guess this is about as close to incontrovertible evidence for your existence as I could have ever demanded.  Actually, as a good skeptic I pray you won't get offended if I entertain the possibility that I'm experiencing a hypoxia-induced hallucination.  But, I'll just go along with this for now.

I'm not going to kneel or anything if you don't mind.  That would kind of be shutting the barn door after the cows have run out, don't you think? Hes saying that its pointless to kneel because hes already going to hell?  Besides: by your will, I was thrust into life in a very undignified manner and state, so the least you could do would be to let me leave it in better circumstances.  And really, that would be the very, very least you could do.  You know, now that the initial shock of being dead is starting to wear off, I find myself getting angry.  I'm trying to restrain it, but this whole situation is... absurd.  According to most accounts, this is the part where you judge me.  Who the hell are you to be a moral judge?  You're a sadistic, genocidal sex-obsessed tyrant. What..? This man is a good writer, but seriously what the f*ck was that..?  All my life, I laughed off those Christians who accused me of "hating God".  Like I told them, it wasn't that I hated you; I just genuinely didn't think you existed. If that is true, then both Christians and atheists will become trees. If not, the two meet extremely different fates.  But I did hate the idea of you.  I didn't see evidence to believe in any gods, but you in particular seemed like a logical contradiction.  I was glad that the Bible was a work of-seeming-fiction because the belief that all of the most terrible things in the world were, at the worst, designed by or, at the best, permitted by an all-powerful conscious being was too horrible to not hate.  It's oddly refreshing to find that all this time I was outraged at something more tangible.

Or is this the part where your grand plan is revealed, your "mysterious ways" made clear? Will you say the magic words and suddenly I'll understand how a child being raped, murdered, and left in a ditch fits in with you infinite benevolence?  Will starvation and disease make sense? The reason for these things is so that humans can achieve morality. Without immorality, morality cannot exist. Without bad, there can be no good. Without choices, there can be no choosing - in this case, between good and evil; between God and Satan. There is no point in making a people so they have no free will, but it makes all the sense in the world to allow them to choose for themselves. Because you know, I don't think I want them to make sense.  If that's part of your omniscient knowledge, then I don't want that part. I guess its fitting:  humanity's first act of defiance was to want knowledge to be more like you.  Then let my last act of defiance be choosing ignorance so that I can be as unlike you as possible. He'll be in hell, so no need. On another tangent, humans have been trying their hardest to be more and more like God for eternity.

This is all perfectly futile.  You know me better than anyone.  You know my mind. You know how I thought. You know – and had the power over- all the circumstances in my life that meant you very existence seemed impossible to me.  After all, you "knit me together in my mother's womb," didn't you?  So am I just a casualty of free will, then?  You wanted worship from people who could choose to worship you and, to satisfy your ego, decided it was a fair price to create people whom you knew wouldn't choose you and would face eternal torture for it. Sigh, refer to my former point. There would be no point in making anyone if they didn't have truly free will; thus some must have the ability to deny Him, although they too can change. The author of this work was not predestined to deny Christ, but he does because he chooses to. If he so chose, he could accept Christ and his argument would thus be null.  You know, even if almost everything had been perfect, a world free from pain and death where everyone would freely choose to spend an eternity with you – except for one person, and yet you made him anyways... then you would still be infinitely more evil than all the worst of humanity combined. Why? Would it not be infinitesimally more evil to disallow free will altogether? Forcing a choice on someone is better than allowing them to chose for themselves? If your atheistic beliefs are indeed false, and you end up in hell, it was your willful - and most likely self righteous - choice to do so. You denied God and believed, by means of free will, in what you WANTED to believe in. Would it not be more evil to rip that choice from your grasp, thus condemning you to believe that what you most ardently pursue is a lie?  You're going to judge me? On behalf of all that's good and decent in your creation, I judge you. I may have been a willful child, but you were a terrible father.

I can't say I'm really inclined to beg for my soul now, given what I said about you knowing me perfectly.  Even so, supposing mercy's still an option (and that last rant didn't kill my chances), I guess it's worth a shot.  I can't pretend I have any love for you, but no principle is worth being damned over if it can be helped.  What shall I say in my defense?

I tried to be good without you.  You told your followers to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and visit the sick.  I did those things, not because you told me to or because I thought I was "storing up treasure in heaven".  I did them for their own sake, for the sake of my neighbors.  When I saw suffering, I tried to help instead of saying a quick prayer to you and believing I'd done something.  And when I didn't help and suffering continued, I held myself responsible instead of concluding it was just your divine will.

And I was content with one life- in fact, despite how terrible life could be, I was usually quite grateful to have one.  I didn't demand more.  I was content to create my own meaning in the meaningless chaos, to find love in all the pain, to find the beautiful simplicity in the apparent complexity.  And I have to say, you may have failed basic ethics but you sure had a deft hand when it came to creating the cosmos – not least because you did it in such a way as to make yourself seem irrelevant.  The splendor of the night sky, the incredible diversity of life, everything.  Quantum mechanics? That was crazy, I loved it!  And relativity?  You were on a roll that day, really.  I saw nearly all of your creation for what it was:  wonderful.  I didn't look at an exquisitely intricate world and call it fallen.  I didn't look at a newborn baby and call it sinful.  I didn't look at my seemingly finite life and call it inadequate.

So you created us because you desired companionship and love?  Well then, you needed me.  But I didn't need you.  I grew up and took responsibility for my own life.  If that really is the greatest crime of all, then there's nothing more I can say.  The deck was stacked against me, but honestly, I can't truly say I have any regrets.  Heaven, hell, oblivion... your move, God.

Though I still think I'm probably hallucinating.


This was kind of a weird essay to read, honestly. It was obscure and seemed to be comprised mostly of random rantings, although the author is am interesting writer.

I guess my main question for you now is:

What would it hurt to believe in God?

Allie

Quote from: Xrow on January 01, 2011, 08:05:56 PM
What would it hurt to believe in God?[/color]

Iunno, my life?
It's a wasted life to believe in such a contradiction, especially if you devote your life to it.
I feel bad for those who spend hours every day trying to please something that contradicts science.

Allie will let Opti take over from here.

Optimism

January 01, 2011, 09:03:50 PM #10 Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 09:27:01 PM by Optimism
It wasn't a random rant; you have to be familiar with the human condition to understand the implications within his writing. You aren't familiar with the human condition (I'm sure you're asking yourself "what the **** is the human condition").

Also, I can 100 percent guarantee you a god associated with the Christian religion (or any religion) is incorrect. Now, what I cannot prove is a generalized god not existing (a god not associated with religion).

A god intertwined with any religion is simply not possible given the countless moral contradictions and error filled, illogical bed-time stories confluent within any scripture of any religion. Man wrote text, so it is only natural that contradictions are inherent within it.

King, your god is all-powerful and all knowing. Simply because this statement is believed true by all Christians, your god, associated with Christianity can't possibly be. Why? You figure that one out (hint, take a look around you).

http://godisimaginary.com/

Read through these, and emancipate yourself from the ignorant life-style you lead. Good luck giving a rebuttal to these simple logical statements derived from a former believer that understands the implications of scriptural contradiction like my **** knows your own mother :).

There is a great quote king, to further allie's statement and it is the following: "Two hands put to task is far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Religion hinders human progress. Simple. I can almost guarantee you, because you are a Christian, you are anti-gay and anti-woman's rights regarding the birthing process. Depending on the strengths of your extrinsically acquired morals, its safe to say that you may even deny a woman an abortion if she was raped by her own father. This is the entire problem -- you derive morality from an external source; I derive my morals from my objective view on the world and a holistic perspective, taking into consideration the "what if I was in this persons shoes". Many, if not all Christians, are incapable of entertaining such thoughts, which ultimately benefit humanity.

I correct your fallacious mindset, yet you continue to make open-ended fallacies. Free will? You have no free will if an all knowing, all powerful (omniscient; omnipotent) god exists. Reason: paradox of free will (I've explained this to you before).

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://atheismresource.com/wp-content/uploads/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psyche.com/psyche/links/recent.html&usg=__ddy4JzMe2njAu0KjdHutp9bLbts=&h=1031&w=720&sz=378&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=GGryAmtxiGcIfM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbefore%2Bdebating%2Ba%2Bchristian%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D692%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=668&ei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&oei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0&tx=65&ty=59

I'm following this with you from this point forward.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 01, 2011, 09:03:50 PM
It wasn't a random rant; you have to be familiar with the human condition to understand the implications within his writing. You aren't familiar with the human condition (I'm sure you're asking yourself "what the **** is the human condition").

Also, I can 100 percent guarantee you a god associated with the Christian religion (or any religion) is incorrect. Now, what I cannot prove is a generalized god not existing (a god not associated with religion).

A god intertwined with any religion is simply not possible given the countless moral contradictions and error filled, illogical bed-time stories confluent within any scripture of any religion. Man wrote text, so it is only natural that contradictions are inherent within it.

King, your god is all-powerful and all knowing. Simply because this statement is believed true by all Christians, your god, associated with Christianity can't possibly be. Why? You figure that one out (hint, take a look around you).

http://godisimaginary.com/

Read through these, and emancipate yourself from the ignorant life-style you lead. Good luck giving a rebuttal to these simple logical statements derived from a former believer that understands the implications of scriptural contradiction like my **** knows your own mother :).

There is a great quote king, to further allie's statement and it is the following: "Two hands put to task is far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Religion hinders human progress. Simple. I can almost guarantee you, because you are a Christian, you are anti-gay and anti-woman's rights regarding the birthing process. Depending on the strengths of your extrinsically acquired morals, its safe to say that you may even deny a woman an abortion if she was raped by her own father. This is the entire problem -- you derive morality from an external source; I derive my morals from my objective view on the world and a holistic perspective, taking into consideration the "what if I was in this persons shoes". Many, if not all Christians, are incapable of entertaining such thoughts, which ultimately benefit humanity.

I correct your fallacious mindset, yet you continue to make open-ended fallacies. Free will? You have no free will if an all knowing, all powerful (omniscient; omnipotent) god exists. Reason: paradox of free will (I've explained this to you before).

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://atheismresource.com/wp-content/uploads/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psyche.com/psyche/links/recent.html&usg=__ddy4JzMe2njAu0KjdHutp9bLbts=&h=1031&w=720&sz=378&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=GGryAmtxiGcIfM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbefore%2Bdebating%2Ba%2Bchristian%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D692%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=668&ei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&oei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0&tx=65&ty=59

I'm following this with you from this point forward.


The human condition, as I understand it, is everything a human experiences within his/her mortal life.

You can 100% guarantee all you want, you can not provide proof.

Good, I am glad a God not associated with religion is possible. I don't consider Christianity a religion, but a belief and a lifestyle.

Examples of these Contradictions?

"Two hands put to task *are far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Nice quote with a typo.

Religion also installs moral boundaries.

I am anti-homosexual because being homosexual intercourse is a massive source of STDs and other physical ailments. I am anti-abortion because it is murder.

Rape is the only realistic exception.

Of course I can entertain these thoughts, but regardless of the teachings of the Bible, I pursue the beliefs I have put forth. Murder of babies is wrong to me. Is it right to you? That is the problem with you, you believe your right even when logic tells you the opposite.

Of course we have free will.
Your statements are full of fallacy, and I will correct you now.
We have the FREE WILL to choose not to murder a defenseless child.
We have the FREE WILL to disallow gay marriage and look down on gay sex.
We have the FREE WILL to have sex before marriage or to wait.
You have the FREE WILL to become an atheist, regardless of what the Bible teaches.
I have the FREE WILL to think you a fool.
We all have free will. I just chose to snap my fingers and take a sip of my Arnold Palmer. No guiding hand is holding a glass to my lips. You give me examples of various instances of free will, and then you deny its exisstence. If you would like to contradict yourself further,
go right ahead.


Optimism

But if god is all knowing and all powerful, how do you have free will if he knows what you will do before you do it? In other words, your life is predetermined -- every decision, every detail. If not, your god isn't all knowing. Its a contradiction; a paradox. By the definition of your god, you have no such thing. Christianity is a religion -- don't rationalize the opposite. Answer your damn PM.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

January 01, 2011, 11:24:01 PM #13 Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 11:38:33 PM by Optimism
Quote from: Optimism on January 01, 2011, 11:11:29 PM
But if god is all knowing and all powerful, how do you have free will if he knows what you will do before you do it? In other words, your life is predetermined -- every decision, every detail. If not, your god isn't all knowing. Its a contradiction; a paradox. By the definition of your god, you have no such thing. Christianity is a religion -- don't rationalize the opposite. Answer your damn PM.

Just because He knows what I will do doesn't mean he is controlling whether or not I do it.
Oh I haz a PM? One sec.

By the way, weren't we having a debate about truth being absolute or relative?

Optimism


...if he knows your future, he knows your path; therefore, he knows whatever decision you make before you make it. Thus, you have no free will, as it is pre-determined. If you can't understand this, then I'm sorry.

Only certain facets of life lack absolute truth. The mechanisms of action of select medications have been documented as absolute truth. If you're dying of a heart attack, beta blockers/nitrate/ace inhibitors, etc. will be given to save your life.

I zoned out and accidentally put my response in your post. Fail lulz.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 01, 2011, 11:38:52 PM
...if he knows your future, he knows your path; therefore, he knows whatever decision you make before you make it. Thus, you have no free will, as it is pre-determined. If you can't understand this, then I'm sorry.

Only certain facets of life lack absolute truth. The mechanisms of action of select medications have been documented as absolute truth. If you're dying of a heart attack, beta blockers/nitrate/ace inhibitors, etc. will be given to save your life.

I zoned out and accidentally put my response in your post. Fail lulz.

It is not predetermined.
Just because He CAN control my next move doesn't mean He WILL. Although He knows my next step, He will allow me to put my foot down as though He had never known. Just because He knows what I will do doesn't mean hes controlling it. Do you understand..?

Allie

Quote from: Xrow on January 01, 2011, 11:58:05 PM
It is not predetermined.
Just because He CAN control my next move doesn't mean He WILL. Although He knows my next step, He will allow me to put my foot down as though He had never known. Just because He knows what I will do doesn't mean hes controlling it. Do you understand..?

YOU'RE NOT RESPECTING HIS AUTHORITY BY CAPITALIZING HIS "He's".
>:\
Xrow is turning atheist.

Optimism

January 02, 2011, 12:05:35 AM #17 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:15:14 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on January 01, 2011, 11:58:05 PM
It is not predetermined.
Just because He CAN control my next move doesn't mean He WILL. Although He knows my next step, He will allow me to put my foot down as though He had never known. Just because He knows what I will do doesn't mean hes controlling it. Do you understand..?

You're failing to understand this concept. Because he knows what you are going to do, it is predetermined. There aren't two choices, because he knows what route you will choose. This meaning, in reality, there is only one path -- the path he knows you will take. Therefore, you have no free will. There is no choice. It is a paradox. If he knows your decision, there is no decision to make. There aren't two paths if there is foreknowledge of your choice -- only one path.

I'm thinking about touching a metal bar. Because god is all knowing, he knows whether I will or will not touch this bar. Therefore, there is no free will if there is foreknowledge of the decision I will make. He knows this decision, and, because of this, the alternate choice would NEVER have been made. There is no such thing as free will, if you believe in Yaweh.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 12:05:35 AM
You're failing to understand this concept. Because he knows what you are going to do, it is predetermined. There aren't two choices, because he knows what route you will choose. This meaning, in reality, there is only one path -- the path he knows you will take. Therefore, you have no free will. There is no choice. It is a paradox. If he knows your decision, there is no decision to make. There aren't two paths if there is foreknowledge of your choice -- only one path.

I'm thinking about touching a metal bar. Because god is all knowing, he knows whether I will or will not touch this bar. Therefore, there is no free will if there is foreknowledge of the decision I will make. He knows this decision, and, because of this, the alternate choice would NEVER have been made.

Ur queer!
Knowing =/= contolling!!
Just because He KNOWS you have crabs doesn't mean He CONTROLS your contraction of it! GET IT?!?!??!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!r?!?1?!?!?!?
Predetermined is an incorrect term, foreknown is correct. D:<

"I'm thinking about touching a metal bar. Because god is all knowing, he knows whether I will or will not touch this bar. Therefore, there is no free will if there is foreknowledge of the decision I will make. He knows this decision, and, because of this, the alternate choice would NEVER have been made."

He knows whether or not you will touch it based on your decision to touch it or not. He knows you will choose to touch it, therefore He knows you will touch it. If you were to choose not to touch it, He then would know that you would not touch it.
UNDORSTAEND?
Just admit your wrong ya queer ;3.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
Ur queer!
Knowing =/= contolling!!
Just because He KNOWS you have crabs doesn't mean He CONTROLS your contraction of it! GET IT?!?!??!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!r?!?1?!?!?!?
Predetermined is an incorrect term, foreknown is correct. D:<

"I'm thinking about touching a metal bar. Because god is all knowing, he knows whether I will or will not touch this bar. Therefore, there is no free will if there is foreknowledge of the decision I will make. He knows this decision, and, because of this, the alternate choice would NEVER have been made."

He knows whether or not you will touch it based on your decision to touch it or not. He knows you will choose to touch it, therefore He knows you will touch it. If you were to choose not to touch it, He then would know that you would not touch it.
UNDORSTAEND?
Just admit your wrong ya queer ;3.


So does he know two decisions? No, there is only one decision that he knows; therefore that decision is predetermined. Always. Therefore, you do not have free-will. Ever.

He knows of ONE choice you will make and one choice only.

http://faiz.kera.la/2008/09/22/the-paradox-of-free-will/
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Nooo noo noo sir, we have already established that He is omniscient, therefore He knows ALL POSSIBLE decisions.

On top of this, He ALLOWS all possible decisions as well.

But the only outcome is the one you decide on.

Now, He also knows that you would decide on this outcome, regardless of the others.

But He did NOT dictate this outcome, you did.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 12:28:05 AM
Nooo noo noo sir, we have already established that He is omniscient, therefore He knows ALL POSSIBLE decisions.

On top of this, He ALLOWS all possible decisions as well.

But the only outcome is the one you decide on.

Now, He also knows that you would decide on this outcome, regardless of the others.

But He did NOT dictate this outcome, you did.


So if he knows everything before I am born, why should I live my life? Why not send me straight to heaven or hell? This is the paradox...you have no free will, as your life is already understood as complete by god. ONLY one decision could be made throughout your life with regard to each circumstance. God knows what you will do before you do it. There is no "choice". There is only what will occur if an omniscient god exists.

You are born and pre-destined to enter heaven or hell. Simple.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Allie

its a big universe
i wish i could care for 7 billion people while making planets and stars and taking care of quadrillions upon quadrillions of other life forms out there at once

Xrow


Allie

ur dumb opti
i have amazing logic that makes no sense but ur dumb opti

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 12:32:38 AM
Opti your dumb ;|

Answer. Why not just send me to hell or heaven?

I'm god. You think you have options. I put your decision in a hat each and every time before you make a decision. Then I reveal this decision to you after you complete your "choice". I'm correct everytime. Do you have free will? No, because I already know what you are going to do before you do it...

Thus, I created you either damned or saved. If pre-destination exists, free-will does NOT exist. If god exists, by logic, free will does not exist due to his omniscient. It is labeled as a paradox for reasons you still fail to understand.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

HEY-O!

So your life is predestined and you have no free will?
If this is true of an Omniscient God, why would He force you to turn from Him to atheism?
Not because HE chose to, but because YOU chose to.

= free will.

Allie

Xrow can't read Opti.
Give up.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 12:36:29 AM
HEY-O!

So your life is predestined and you have no free will?
If this is true of an Omniscient God, why would He force you to turn from Him to atheism?
Not because HE chose to, but because YOU chose to.

= free will.

Exactly, King? Why would he? This is a common contradiction to religion. Why would god pre-destine someone to be damned or saved? I only have choice if god doesn't know the answer...how can you not grasp this?

QuoteIf he really has the knowledge of everything, he knows how our life is going to start, how we are going to live that and how that is going to end. He is aware of the complex decision tree that we are going to traverse in our life and if his knowledge is complete in all the sense, he knows the leaf node of the tree at which our life will finally end. So if he is all knowing, we do not have free will. We are just the actors of the play written and directed by him...

There is only one future. If there were two, then god wouldn't be all-knowing. You are bound by this one future. Because there is only one future an alternate decision was never a possibility. If it were, there would be two futures and god would have the probability of being incorrect, which is contradictory.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 12:34:39 AM
Answer. Why not just send me to hell or heaven?
Because thats your choice to make. He knows your choice, but He will not choose it for you. Understand?

I'm god. You think you have options. I put your decision in a hat each and every time before you make a decision. Ah, indeed. But it is still MY DECISION (flaw in your argument there), and thus I used free will to choose it. Then I reveal this decision to you after you complete your "choice". I'm correct everytime. Do you have free will? No, because I already know what you are going to do before you do it...

Thus, I created you either damned or saved. If pre-destination exists, free-will does NOT exist. If god exists, by logic, free will does not exist due to his omniscient. It is labeled as a paradox for reasons you still fail to understand.
Ah, untrue. God created us knowing whether or not we will follow Him, thus whether or not we will be damned or saved. He didn't choose for us to accept or deny Him, but He allowed us the means with which to make our own choice on the matter.


Answer me this, Opti. If Christianity is correct, are you damned or saved?

Optimism

January 02, 2011, 12:45:42 AM #30 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:48:37 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 12:42:19 AM
Exactly, King? Why would he? This is a common contradiction to religion. Why would god pre-destine someone to be damned or saved? I only have choice if god doesn't know the answer...how can you not grasp this?

There is only one future. If there were two, then god wouldn't be all-knowing. You are bound by this one future. Because there is only one future an alternate decision was never a possibility. If it were, there would be two futures and god would have the probability of being incorrect, which is contradictory.

View the bold (apparently you can't make this correlation -- regardless if it is my decision outside of gods plan, only one future exits, meaning, I HAVE NO FREE WILL). If two futures exist, god is not omniscient (contradiction, although here, I would have free will). Undeniable. A god associated with any religion isn't possible (its 100 percent refutable, as stated previously). The paradox of the garden; the paradox of free will; the paradox of unconditional love; etc. Contradiction=fallacy=not true.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 12:45:42 AM
View the bold. Undeniable. A god associated with any religion isn't possible (its 100 percent refutable, as stated previously). The paradox of the garden; the paradox of free will; the paradox of unconditional love; etc. Contradiction=fallacy=not true.

Of course there is only one future, but multiple decisions are made in order to reach whatever this future is, and thus there are many possible futures.

All of these futures are possible, but only one is actual BECAUSE of the choices YOU MAKE.
Although God knows the actual one, he is did not PREDESTINE it!

Optimism

January 02, 2011, 01:02:27 AM #32 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:06:04 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 01:00:03 AM
Of course there is only one future, but multiple decisions are made in order to reach whatever this future is, and thus there are many possible futures.

All of these futures are possible, but only one is actual BECAUSE of the choices YOU MAKE.
Although God knows the actual one, he is did not PREDESTINE it!

You've just failed. There, lies the paradox. If there are indeed multiple futures, then god is not all knowing (omniscient). He would have to guess at what you will do. However, because god knows what you will do, there is only one future, not many. Thus, he is all knowing and you, friend, lack free will.

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 12:45:42 AM
View the bold (apparently you can't make this correlation -- regardless if it is my decision outside of gods plan, only one future exits, meaning, I HAVE NO FREE WILL). If two futures exist, god is not omniscient (contradiction, although here, I would have free will). Undeniable. A god associated with any religion isn't possible (its 100 percent refutable, as stated previously). The paradox of the garden; the paradox of free will; the paradox of unconditional love; etc. Contradiction=fallacy=not true.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 01:02:27 AM
You've just failed. There, lies the paradox. If there are indeed multiple futures, then god is not all knowing (omniscient). He would have to guess at what you will do. However, because god knows what you will do, there is only one future, not many. Thus, he is all knowing and you, friend, lack free will.


You are stupid >_>.
First of all, I am not stupid, which is why I said POSSIBLE FUTURES.
Of course there is only one future in the end, but your own choices create it.

Optimism

January 02, 2011, 01:11:15 AM #34 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:13:18 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 01:09:08 AM
You are stupid >_>.
First of all, I am not stupid, which is why I said POSSIBLE FUTURES.
Of course there is only one future in the end, but your own choices create it.

LoL? The simple fact that you used the word possible (I was hoping you would -- and wow, its in bold, even better), means that this possibility would exist for god as well (god would have to choose between multiple possible futures), WHICH MEANS, he cannot be all knowing (contradiction). But, because god is all knowing, only one possible future exists. Multiple possibilities = statistical chance for incorrectness (fallibility in an infallible god). If god knows the future, then only ONE can exist if this god is all knowing. You must get this by now. Simply because you believe there to be multiple possibilities and thus futures, doesn't mean god sees it this way as well. If he does, this is no god (fallible).
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Wtf are you not getting o.O?
God wouldn't have to choose shit, you would..

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
Wtf are you not getting o.O?
God wouldn't have to choose shit, you would..

One future. One possibility. One choice. Disprove this statement, or you have no free will. If you mention the phrase, multiple possible futures, then you've entered the paradox. God is no longer god.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Opti your honestly being f*cking stupid >_>
Every time you have more than one choice in any matter, there are multiple possible futures.

Here is an example. If you do not understand it after this, I am done.
Example:
You walk into a restaurant, and on the menu are 3 choices. The choices are as such: 1. Bacon, 2. Pancakes, or 3. a Muffin. You consider the options, and choose bacon. After you have eaten the bacon, you leave feeling great, to go on with your life.
Now, although God knew you would choose the bacon, He did not FORCE you to choose the bacon. If you had decided to choose pancakes, He would have known you would have chosen it, but He wouldn't have FORCED you to choose it.
Just because you choose bacon over pancakes doesn't mean God is controlling you. Nothing was stopping you from choosing a muffin or the pancakes.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 01:28:26 AM
Opti your honestly being f*cking stupid >_>
Every time you have more than one choice in any matter, there are multiple possible futures.

Here is an example. If you do not understand it after this, I am done.
Example:
You walk into a restaurant, and on the menu are 3 choices. The choices are as such: 1. Bacon, 2. Pancakes, or 3. a Muffin. You consider the options, and choose bacon. After you have eaten the bacon, you leave feeling great, to go on with your life.
Now, although God knew you would choose the bacon, He did not FORCE you to choose the bacon. If you had decided to choose pancakes, He would have known you would have chosen it, but He wouldn't have FORCED you to choose it.
Just because you choose bacon over pancakes doesn't mean God is controlling you. Nothing was stopping you from choosing a muffin or the pancakes.

Since god knew you would eat the bacon, you only have one future and thus, one possibility (no choice). The muffin and pancakes are irrelevant. You think you have a choice; however, because god knows your choice (one future), those possibilities never existed as viable options. If they were viable, you would have three futures and thus, god would have a 33.333 repeating chance of guessing which you would select. If this is the case, you have free will and god is not god (fallible). You keep forgetting this is a paradox. I've summarized the paradox for you here.

PARADOX

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=692&q=define%3A+paradox&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

No your retarded.
Use your damn brain.

One future doesn't = one possibility.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 01:42:14 AM
No your retarded.
Use your damn brain.

One future doesn't = one possibility.

lolwut?
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 01:43:15 AM
lolwut?

It pertains to your former post.

Read queer
"Since god knew you would eat the bacon, you only have one future and thus, one possibility (no choice)."

Optimism

January 02, 2011, 01:51:18 AM #42 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:54:55 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 01:34:52 AM
Since god knew you would eat the bacon, you only have one future and thus, one possibility (no choice). The muffin and pancakes are irrelevant. You think you have a choice; however, because god knows your choice (one future), those possibilities never existed as viable options. If they were viable, you would have three futures and thus, god would have a 33.333 repeating chance of guessing which you would select. If this is the case, you have free will and god is not god (fallible). You keep forgetting this is a paradox. I've summarized the paradox for you here.

PARADOX

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=692&q=define%3A+paradox&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

You should re-read. Everything you need to know to understand this concept is there. Everything. You need to use the rest of the statement in order to understand that sentence...I took the liberty of italicizing it for you in-case you mis-read, again. If there is one future, there is one possibility when decision making is involved. If not, why not? This is where you fall apart logically.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 01:34:52 AM
Since god knew you would eat the bacon, you only have one future and thus, one possibility (no choice). NO. You only have one damn future because you only made one damn choice. understand? The muffin and pancakes are irrelevant. Ah, but they are not. They represent other possible choices, and thus other possible futures. The choice you choose represents your future, but as you could only make one choice, you have only one future. You think you have a choice; however, because god knows your choice (one future), those possibilities never existed as viable options. Refer to my former statement. If they were viable, you would have three futures and thus, god would have a 33.333 repeating chance of guessing which you would select. The ****? You would have three POSSIBLE futures, not three ACTUAL futures. If this is the case, you have free will and god is not god (fallible). You keep forgetting this is a paradox. I've summarized the paradox for you here. Not. Looking. At. Link. Because. I. Am. Right.

....Admit. You. Are. Wrong.





Optimism

January 02, 2011, 02:00:51 AM #44 Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:03:57 AM by Optimism
Quote from: Optimism on January 02, 2011, 01:11:15 AM
LoL? The simple fact that you used the word possible (I was hoping you would -- and wow, its in bold, even better), means that this possibility would exist for god as well (god would have to choose between multiple possible futures), WHICH MEANS, he cannot be all knowing (contradiction). But, because god is all knowing, only one possible future exists. Multiple possibilities = statistical chance for incorrectness (fallibility in an infallible god). If god knows the future, then only ONE can exist if this god is all knowing. You must get this by now. Simply because you believe there to be multiple possibilities and thus futures, doesn't mean god sees it this way as well. If he does, this is no god (fallible).

Re-read. I've explained this already. What am I trying to tell you here? Answer this question. If you can't, you aren't entertaining the thought required to understand the concept. I'm serious; answer that question. What is the paradox of free will? The paradox of free will is real. It exists in philosophy. You are refuting something already substantiated. Why? Because you can't understand the concept. If you can repeat it to me in your own words, then you understand it and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Many faithfuls conquer this paradox exists extensively.

You simply denying anything that doesn't fit into your way-of-life. This is unhealthy and prohibits progression of human thought and empathy for fellow man.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

No.
YOU re-read.
I'm done with this debate.


Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 02:02:10 AM
No.
YOU re-read.
I'm done with this debate.



lol. I've re-read. I understand your point of view, but it is incorrect. If you don't understand it from how I am trying to convey the concept to yourself, then consult an external source.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

GavinGill

January 03, 2011, 06:29:31 PM #47 Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:21:50 AM by GavinGill
An omni-benevolent god as described in the Abrahamic religions wouldn't care if an individual believed in Him or not; therefore, no one would be sent to Hell simply because they didn't beleive in God's existence. Furthermore, an omni-benevolent god wouldn't allow Hell to even exist. You can't refute that, Xrow.

I acknowledge the possibility of a higher power but I doubt it, assuming it exists, exerts any sort of omniscient influence on our world. If it did, it wouldn't allow atrocities to occur. If anything, God is a force indifferent to the plight of the many and the existence of the few. And I'm ok with that.

"You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today."
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is
done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves."

AllEyesOnMe

erm Xrow, the fact that God DOESN`T force you eat a coockie DOESN`T mean he DOESN`t know whether you gonna eat it or not  ;D


Yz

Hey guys, if God can do anything, can he bake a potatoe so hot that he can't eat it?
DISCORD killyzkill

Xrow

January 04, 2011, 12:19:00 AM #50 Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:20:52 AM by Xrow
Quote from: GavinGill on January 03, 2011, 06:29:31 PM
An omni-benevolent god as described in the Abrahamic religions wouldn't care if an individual believed in Him or not therefore, no one would be sent to Hell simply because they didn't beleive in God's existence. Furthermore, an omni-benevolent god wouldn't allow Hell to exist. You can't refute that Xrow.

I acknowledge the possibility of a higher power but I doubt it, assuming it exists, exerts any sort of omniscient influence on our world. If it did, it wouldn't allow atrocities to occur. If anything, God is a force indifferent to the plight of many and the existence of the few. And I'm ok with that.


Of course I can.
There is no reason to believe that the God of Christianity is all-good (omni-benevolent); maybe he is all-just instead. Therefore if a person chooses (free will) to deny Him, it is only just for that person to suffer the consequences of his or her own decision.
Gavin, you are judging God by human standards. Just because Joseph Stalin didn't care about the individual doesn't mean God doesn't as well. If God is all-just, they can He not be all-caring as well?

If you judge God by human standards (taking into consideration murder, rape, theft, ect.) then of course He will fall short, just as all humans do.

GavinGill

If all-just = all-caring (ie. omni-benevolent) then he is not all-just simply because an all-caring God wouldn't banish an individual to Hell just because that individual didn't beleive in Him/Her/It. Shit, an all-caring higher power wouldn't allow Hell to exist.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter to me. If God doesn't exist then oh well, I'll be too dead to (be able to) care about an afterlife. If God does exist, I have nothing to worry about since I know I've lived a good life. One's faith in God shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things as long as they don't live a life of what would constitute as sin.

Probably my last post in this thread. Like last time, I doubt we'll get anywhere with this discussion.

"You cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today."
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is
done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves."

Xrow

Quote from: GavinGill on January 04, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
If all-just = all-caring (ie. omni-benevolent) then he is not all-just simply because an all-caring God wouldn't banish an individual to Hell just because that individual didn't beleive in Him/Her/It. Shit, an all-caring higher power wouldn't allow Hell to exist.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter to me. If God doesn't exist then oh well, I'll be too dead to (be able to) care about an afterlife. If God does exist, I have nothing to worry about since I know I've lived a good life. One's faith in God shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things as long as they don't live a life of what would constitute as sin.

Probably my last post in this thread. Like last time, I doubt we'll get anywhere with this discussion.


I did not say He IS all-caring, I asked if He COULD be. Of course all-just ≠ all-caring, that is an absurd and fallacious assumption.

I could even go so far as to argue that an all-caring God WOULD allow hell, because just punishment for wrongdoings is quite caring. A parent who punishes their children for disobeying is seen as a caring, intelligent and generally good parent. Within the United States legal system, if a person commits a murder, they are quite justly condemned to jail for life.

On the flip side, if God allowed those who deny Him in favor of another opposing belief into Heaven, could He really be seen as caring and good by those who followed Him and entered Heaven justly and fairly? I could give many minor examples of this, but I am sure you can think of some for yourself.



Rossbach

Quote from: Xrow on January 04, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
I did not say He IS all-caring, I asked if He COULD be. Of course all-just ≠ all-caring, that is an absurd and fallacious assumption.

I could even go so far as to argue that an all-caring God WOULD allow hell, because just punishment for wrongdoings is quite caring. A parent who punishes their children for disobeying is seen as a caring, intelligent and generally good parent. Within the United States legal system, if a person commits a murder, they are quite justly condemned to jail for life.

On the flip side, if God allowed those who deny Him in favor of another opposing belief into Heaven, could He really be seen as caring and good by those who followed Him and entered Heaven justly and fairly? I could give many minor examples of this, but I am sure you can think of some for yourself.





Quote from: Xrow on January 02, 2011, 02:02:10 AM
No.
YOU re-read.
I'm done with this debate.




Shoo.





Omnomnom eating toast.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 04, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
I did not say He IS all-caring, I asked if He COULD be. Of course all-just ≠ all-caring, that is an absurd and fallacious assumption.

I could even go so far as to argue that an all-caring God WOULD allow hell, because just punishment for wrongdoings is quite caring. A parent who punishes their children for disobeying is seen as a caring, intelligent and generally good parent. Within the United States legal system, if a person commits a murder, they are quite justly condemned to jail for life.

On the flip side, if God allowed those who deny Him in favor of another opposing belief into Heaven, could He really be seen as caring and good by those who followed Him and entered Heaven justly and fairly? I could give many minor examples of this, but I am sure you can think of some for yourself.




You are so ****ing stupid its unbelievable. If I had time, I would wall-of-text your ass into oblivion; however, I don't.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Allie

Quote from: Optimism on January 04, 2011, 10:49:23 PM
You are so ****ing stupid its unbelievable. If I had time, I would wall-of-text your ass into oblivion; however, I don't.

Because god is on Xrow's side, thus you can't have time because Xrow believes in god, therefore it's impossible for him to be wall-of-texted into oblivion, which he would if you did.

Yz

Quote from: Xrow on January 04, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
I did not say He IS all-caring, I asked if He COULD be. Of course all-just ≠ all-caring, that is an absurd and fallacious assumption.

I could even go so far as to argue that an all-caring God WOULD allow hell, because just punishment for wrongdoings is quite caring. A parent who punishes their children for disobeying is seen as a caring, intelligent and generally good parent. Within the United States legal system, if a person commits a murder, they are quite justly condemned to jail for life.

On the flip side, if God allowed those who deny Him in favor of another opposing belief into Heaven, could He really be seen as caring and good by those who followed Him and entered Heaven justly and fairly? I could give many minor examples of this, but I am sure you can think of some for yourself.




He still can't bake anything so hot he can't eat it.
DISCORD killyzkill

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 04, 2011, 10:49:23 PM
You are so ****ing stupid its unbelievable. If I had time, I would wall-of-text your ass into oblivion; however, I don't.

/care

Quote from: Allie on January 04, 2011, 10:54:23 PM
Because god is on Xrow's side, thus you can't have time because Xrow believes in god, therefore it's impossible for him to be wall-of-texted into oblivion, which he would if you did.

1. You are paralyzingly dense.
2. If there is only one possible future as there is no free will, then Opti never really had the chance to wall-of-text me in the first place, now did he? And because this is the only reality and future, there must have been some reason for it to have happened, as there is a reason for everything, is there not? Now, because there is a reason (because there is a reason for everything) for Opti's inability to waste his time posting a wall of text that none of us would read, and because the current most obvious cause of this inability is that God has intervened in the life of Opti, this must be the cause. This means that a. I was correct; there is free will, and Opti has chosen to spend his time on other inventions, or b. Opti has become a bitch to his own foolish theory.

Gg, Allie.
>_>

Quote from: Tricky on January 04, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
He still can't bake anything so hot he can't eat it.

He is fine, He cooks food on His 12 pack.

Allie

Re-read my post pls.
My post didn't ask for a reply, it was saying since you believe in god, and since believers of god live forever, the reason Opti didn't have time to wall-of-text you into oblivion was because god didn't allow him to have time because if he did have time you wouldn't live forever because you'd be wall-of-texted into oblivion, which, naturally, Opti didn't have the free will to do, unfortunately.
You see, yes?

Xrow

I was using your retardness to pwn Opti.
But thats okay, you'll learn.

And if Opti didn't have the free will to wall-of-text me, then why the **** did he choose not to wall-of-text me?
/facepalm

Allie

Cause god didn't give him enough time naturally.
;o

Xrow

Oh, has time run out?

Allie

Ask god; it was his plan after all, right?

Xrow

You understand my point, Opti still had time and he chose to use it on w/e hes doing.

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 05, 2011, 02:46:50 AM
You understand my point, Opti still had time and he chose to use it on w/e hes doing.

Still too stupid do understand the paradox of free will. I can't explain more paradoxes without you first understanding this one. Silly fool, because you don't play by the rules of logic (yes, rules exist that enable PROGRESS), you'll never understand the concept. Christianity has ****ed you brain at a very young age and has hindered your ability to objectively reason. I pitty you.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

January 05, 2011, 09:27:33 PM #65 Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 09:29:39 PM by Xrow
Quote from: Optimism on January 05, 2011, 03:20:20 PM
Still too stupid do understand the paradox of free will. I can't explain more paradoxes without you first understanding this one. Silly fool, because you don't play by the rules of logic (yes, rules exist that enable PROGRESS), you'll never understand the concept. Christianity has ****ed you brain at a very young age and has hindered your ability to objectively reason. I pitty you.

Sometimes you are so dense, it is just mind blowing. My brain just broke.

Pitty me all the f*ck you want; when you die early from a heart attack, I'll be using you as firewood.

Sir, the extremely dense, close-minded form of dark matter that composes your particular mind hinders you from the obvious. I do not have to agree with the "free will paradox," to understand it.

And another thing, writing me a short story every time you *attempt* to refute an argument does make you appear more intelligent, but it also deludes your argument and logic.
A true debater can assert one thesis and prove another in a short amount of word or text.
>_>.













....***got  :P

Optimism

Quote from: Xrow on January 05, 2011, 09:27:33 PM
Sometimes you are so dense, it is just mind blowing. My brain just broke.

Pitty me all the f*ck you want; when you die early from a heart attack, I'll be using you as firewood.

Sir, the extremely dense, close-minded form of dark matter that composes your particular mind hinders you from the obvious. I do not have to agree with the "free will paradox," to understand it.

And another thing, writing me a short story every time you *attempt* to refute an argument does make you appear more intelligent, but it also deludes your argument and logic.
A true debater can assert one thesis and prove another in a short amount of word or text.
>_>.










....***got  :P

I've come to the conclusion that you are no longer worth the expenditure of my time.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

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