[Xrow]

Thesis statement:
Order has the tendency to transition towards disorder.

My argument:
Throughout the universe, no matter religion nor ethnicity nor race nor any other impartial factor, order has the tendency to degenerate towards chaos.  This reality is seen everywhere in nature: life becomes death, new buildings become old and deteriorate, wealth becomes poverty.
An example of this is the Broken Window theory.  In essence, the Broken Window theory states that if a broken window on a building is not promptly fixed, miscreants will converge over time and will break more windows.



Discuss.

[zomniethe4]

i dont get it

[Xrow]

Do you agree or disagree with the thesis statement, and why?

[zomniethe4]

i dont get the thesis

[Xrow]

What..?
Did you read the rest of the post?  It explains one half of the thesis o.O

[Iridion]

did you turn into mini-opti or what

anyway, i dont see how life becoming (natural)death generates chaos

[Allie]

Not all good becomes bad, but it's difficult for bad to become good.

Believe it or not, I agree nearly completely with your thesis statement, but your evidence contradicts.

Your thesis claims that everything that is good normally, but not always, becomes bad.
Your evidence claims that EVERYTHING good goes bad eventually.
Both are theories, but they do not mean the same.

I believe in the first thesis, everything that is good normally goes bad.

/dumbed down for Zom

[Xrow]

did you turn into mini-opti or what

anyway, i dont see how life becoming (natural)death generates chaos

Naa, I've always been a thinker.  Me and Awptee had been debating belief for years (literally).

And I'm not saying that the degeneration of life spawns chaos, but that life leading to death is an example of order leading to chaos.

I agree nearly completely with your thesis statement, but your evidence contradicts.

Your thesis claims that everything that is good normally, but not always, becomes bad.
Your evidence claims that EVERYTHING good goes bad eventually.
Both are theories, but they do not mean the same.

I believe in the first thesis, everything that is good normally goes bad.

Thank you for the input.

That evidence was just an example; I quoted it as it was.  It was merely supportive of my thesis, not a replacement of it.

Another Example:
"Scientists in the Netherlands empirically demonstrated a phenomenon observed by policymakers and law-enforcement officials for years. When an envelope visibly containing a five-euro note was left hanging out of a mailbox on a sidewalk, 13 percent of the passersby snatched it up. When the same mailbox was covered in graffiti, however, more than double the number of the pedestrians (about 27 percent) stole the envelope."  (Sheila Prakash).

[Optimism]

I see what you are going for here -- the second law of thermal dynamics.

However, keep in mind, this bods true only for a closed system (and even this doesn't occur constantly -- the Gibb's paradox). This universe is an open system; therefore, the tendency towards entropy (disorder, or what you like to call chaos) isn't always a rule of thumb.

Keep in mind, anabolic processes occur constantly, giving rise to more complex structures enabling more complex functions. You are only looking at the broad scope of a human life-time. Sure, humans die, but during their lifespan, innumerable occurrences can be accounted for as the exact opposite of chaos. For you to grow from a child to an adult speaks for itself. For that window to even become a window, a child must become a man and the man must enable the rise of the construct itself. Without order, disorder would never have the possibility of being so (in this situation).

[zomniethe4]

I see what you are going for here -- the second law of thermal dynamics.

However, keep in mind, this bods true only for a closed system (and even this doesn't occur constantly -- the Gibb's paradox). This universe is an open system; therefore, the tendency towards entropy (disorder, or what you like to call chaos) isn't always a rule of thumb.

Keep in mind, anabolic processes occur constantly, giving rise to more complex structures enabling more complex functions. You are only looking at the broad scope of a human life-time. Sure, humans die, but during their lifespan, innumerable occurrences can be accounted for as the exact opposite of chaos. For you to grow from a child to an adult speaks for itself. For that window to even become a window, a child must become a man and the man must enable the rise of the construct itself. Without order, disorder would never have the possibility of being so (in this situation).

i concur

[hoang1001]

This is a tottaly legit thesis. I agree, due to the fact that it is true that once someone has gone torward one road, the person is unlikely to turn back. If you are at the full point it is hard to turn back, thus it is easy to turn to bad while good but hard to turn back to good while bad. Although this is not always the case, the chances are much higher in the favor of your thesis.

[Xrow]

I see what you are going for here -- the second law of thermal dynamics.

However, keep in mind, this bods true only for a closed system (and even this doesn't occur constantly -- the Gibb's paradox). This universe is an open system; therefore, the tendency towards entropy (disorder, or what you like to call chaos) isn't always a rule of thumb.

Keep in mind, anabolic processes occur constantly, giving rise to more complex structures enabling more complex functions. You are only looking at the broad scope of a human life-time. Sure, humans die, but during their lifespan, innumerable occurrences can be accounted for as the exact opposite of chaos. For you to grow from a child to an adult speaks for itself. For that window to even become a window, a child must become a man and the man must enable the rise of the construct itself. Without order, disorder would never have the possibility of being so (in this situation).

Uhm.
Not to disagree, because I don't.  But I'm not talking about the second law of thermodynamics, because as far as i know, it refers to an attained equilibrium.  Entropy is an extremely specific word that portrays only a small section of the concept I am trying to put forth.

I am saying that in nearly every aspect of life, and in the most elementary terms I have yet thought of, good goes to bad.  Health degenerates, governments degenerate, relationships degenerate.  As soon as your born, you begin to die.  As soon as the world was born, it began to die.



Dammit none of you people are arguing with me lol.
My fool sister says that disorder ALWAYS generates order.  She is close minded and stupid.  :].

[zomniethe4]

It does

[Optimism]

Uhm.
Not to disagree, because I don't.  But I'm not talking about the second law of thermodynamics, because as far as i know, it refers to an attained equilibrium.  Entropy is an extremely specific word that portrays only a small section of the concept I am trying to put forth.

I am saying that in nearly every aspect of life, and in the most elementary terms I have yet thought of, good goes to bad.  Health degenerates, governments degenerate, relationships degenerate.  As soon as your born, you begin to die.  As soon as the world was born, it began to die.



Dammit none of you people are arguing with me lol.
My fool sister says that disorder ALWAYS generates order.  She is close minded and stupid.  :].

Given your statement here, you are directly referring to the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy is an intricate part of this law.

For disorder to occur, order must establish itself. Good and bad are relative terms. Your perspective is different from that of another. Aging isn't necessarily viewed as bad by select individuals. Governments degenerate, but again, this can be argued as something good. Without the degradation of such governments, democracy would never have come to fruition, which is viewed as good by many. One could even argue that the falling apart of governments is required to find the perfect surrogate body to maintain a society. To die, one must live, again, giving substance to my aforementioned statement -- for disorder to occur, order must establish itself. Is death "bad"? According to many religious individuals, it is merely a stepping stone in an eternal conscious (you, yourself believe this). What you are failing to realize here is your usage of the terms "good" and "bad" are completely subjective and may differ from the opinion of another. This argument holds not argument, simply.

Your sister is brighter than you think. Failing governments give rise to more perfect governments. An aging dieing populous gives rise to an exponentially greater (and younger) populous through sexual reproduction (order acquired from disorder). From the death of worlds and solar systems comes the rebirth of worlds and solar systems, giving rise, through UGLY PONIES a new populous (order). With regard to relationships, pending on your own perspectives, disorderly conduct may give rise to a stronger love and an ever-increasing bond between one's partner. I myself am a testament to this statement. You are being the narrow minded individual here, not your sister. You've yet to acquire the holistic perspective required to understand such things by yourself. You still have a ways to go, King.

[Xrow]

Given your statement here, you are directly referring to the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy is an intricate part of this law.

"Entropy" is defined as a measure of unusable energy within a closed or isolated system (the universe for example). As usable energy decreases and unusable energy increases, "entropy" increases. Entropy is also a gauge of randomness or chaos within a closed system. As usable energy is irretrievably lost, disorganization, randomness and chaos increase.
My apologies.  I thought, for some reason, that you were referring to Le Chatelier's Principle of Dynamic Equilibrium.
I agree, the second law of thermodynamics applies.

For disorder to occur, order must establish itself.
Although this is true, order does not generally establish itself.  Work is required to create an ideal government, and to maintain it.  Work is required to give birth, to make money, to acquire knowledge.  On the other hand, natural consequences tend to degenerate these things.  Miscarriages are becoming increasingly common, inherited deformities and diseases are as well.  The US has, in essence, spent itself into a recession.  Deterioration in nature has taken place ever-increasingly as well.
Good and bad are relative terms. Your perspective is different from that of another. Aging isn't necessarily viewed as bad by select individuals. Governments degenerate, but again, this can be argued as something good. Without the degradation of such governments, democracy would never have come to fruition, which is viewed as good by many. One could even argue that the falling apart of governments is required to find the perfect surrogate body to maintain a society. I agree that death can result in the betterment of life, but I do not believe that a utopian society exists outside of Heaven (Our opinions would wrestle over this matter until the sun failed to rise, so lets not get into it).  Because people are constantly flawed, therefore so are governments - such is life.
To die, one must live, again, giving substance to my aforementioned statement -- for disorder to occur, order must establish itself. Is death "bad"? According to many religious individuals, it is merely a stepping stone in an eternal conscious (you, yourself believe this).
Although this is true, many religions fear death as an eternal darkness.  An even greater number of religions see death as a bad thing because it is the end of ministry and conversion on earth.  The longer a person (such as a Christian) lives, the more lives they can affect and the more people will be converted.
What you are failing to realize here is your usage of the terms "good" and "bad" are completely subjective and may differ from the opinion of another. This argument holds not argument, simply.

Your sister is brighter than you think.
Eh, no, she only believes that because a crazy history teacher told her that.  Shes the type that would defend a thesis even if evidence of her wrongness was tattooed on her arm, just for the sake of being right.
Failing governments give rise to more perfect governments.
Better, not more perfect.  Possibly not even better.  No utopia exists on earth.
An aging dieing populous gives rise to an exponentially greater (and younger) populous through sexual reproduction (order acquired from disorder).
Well, in the extreme short term, this is true.  The next generation is now more healthy than the last, but how healthy are they really?  66% of minorities inherit type 2 diabetes, 33% of majorities inherit it.  It has increased close to 20% in both majorities and minorities since 1990.  On top of this, birth complications are becoming far more common.
The generations of today are far less healthy than their ancestors.  Life expectancy becomes increasingly shorter over time.  At about 3339 BC, a man named Methuselah was born.  He lived an unbelievably long life of 969 years before dying of natural causes.  Today the life expectancy of women in the US is 80.8, and is 75.6 for men.  That is a massive age difference in a relatively short period of time, especially for the Darwin-believing Atheist.
From the death of worlds and solar systems comes the rebirth of worlds and solar systems, giving rise, through UGLY PONIES I think it is comedic (and even cosmic) that this is the only non-vulgar censored word on these forums. a new populous (order).  Which then deteriorates over millions of years.. o.O
With regard to relationships, pending on your own perspectives, disorderly conduct may give rise to a stronger love and an ever-increasing bond between one's partner. I myself am a testament to this statement. Currently in America,  45% to 50% of first marriages end in divorce.  60% to 67% of second marriages end in divorce.  70% to 73% of third marriages end in divorce.  These are the highest divorce rates in the history of the world; relationships are failing more now than ever before.
On top of this, premarital sex in America is increasing and has been for decades.  Currently, studies show that 9 out of every 10 Americans have had premarital sex.  "Contrary to pop-culture wisdom, those who do choose to save sex for marriage are not doomed to a second-class sex life. Rather they typically report higher levels of sexual satisfaction and marital contentment. Moreover, early sexual experience has been linked to marital dissatisfaction, low self-esteem, and greater incidence of Divorce" (Hooten).  Not only is immorality increasing throughout America, but it is ruining more relationships than ever, both before and after marriage.  Healthy relationships are becoming a thing of the past.
You are being the narrow minded individual here, not your sister. You've yet to acquire the holistic perspective required to understand such things by yourself. You still have a ways to go, King.
I believe I understand all that my thesis statement encompasses, I am not sure what else you are referring to.