[Xrow]

Faith isn't required in any aspect of life.


Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.  

Religion wants me to have "faith" that God is there, without any proof of its existence.

This is a somewhat complicated subject ;|.
How do you know the "apple" is not merely a holographic representation of an apple?

a. You must believe the apple is there, because you see it in front of you.
b. You must believe that the evidence that suggests the apples existence is true.
c. When you breath in while reading this, you must believe that air will enter your lungs, because if you believe it won't, you won't attempt to breathe.
d. You must believe that your assertion is true, or you would not have posted it.
e. You must believe you are debating with Xrow, and that a college professor is not posing as me.

Finally, you must believe that the chair your sitting in will hold you, or you would not have sat down.
Almost everything you do requires some degree of belief ;|
This is called Psychological Certitude and is also known as cognitive certainty.

Example:

You have a box in your hand. You tell me that inside the box there is a unicorn. I look inside the box and there is nothing there.
You tell me that it is invisible. I feel around around the box, and nothing is there. You tell me that it is intangible. I say that a unicorn couldn't fit inside that box.
You tell me it is a miniature unicorn. I tell you I can't hear/ or smell said unicorn, you tell me to have "faith" that it is there.

Please explain to me why I should?

This is far too inadequate an example to be used in reference to reality ;\.
That would be like me handing you a glass of water and asking how it could evolve into a human.

[Xrow]

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true". That's what they call reality. However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms. Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. Everyone is living by their own assumptions.

The earth being flat was our own convenient assumption a few hundred years ago. So no one can say one belief is wrong and one belief is right. We all have our own beliefs. No one can say faith isn't real and cannot be a basis for anything. So in essence, this whole topic is based on conflicting beliefs, not on anything else.

Well.. Not all beliefs can be true, as they conflict each other. Therefore one belief must be true o.O. And if not, humans have not yet believed the right belief.

[icepulse]

Nice double post, I'm not getting at there being one RIGHT belief, I'm getting at the fact that people believe differently and there is no point in trying to force your beliefs onto another person. I believe in God, yet I don't force my beliefs down other peoples throats. But I don't ignore their beliefs either.

[Xrow]

Thank you? I really don't care too much about double posting to be honest. Sorry Allie <3.

Anyways, I believe in God as well. I am not trying to forcefeed Opti or anyone else my belief. I enjoy debating, and what better topic to debate about than the eternal consequences of our existence?

[Optimism]

Faith isn't required in any aspect of life.


Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.  

Religion wants me to have "faith" that God is there, without any proof of its existence.

This is a somewhat complicated subject ;|.
How do you know the "apple" is not merely a holographic representation of an apple?

a. You must believe the apple is there, because you see it in front of you.

You don't have to "believe" that the apple is there, as I can pick this apple up, eat it, toss it around or feed it to something else. Through science, this apple is known as a nutritious source. In part, with other foods, this apple gives rise to my progression through life from toddlerhood to adulthood. Belief? lol? I can perceive this apple with all five senses. Even one sense would suffice. Your god? Nothing similar to the aforementioned can be done with that fabled story. Nothing. Therefore, belief is required absolutely, along with faith. Can you touch god? Smell god? See god? Hear god? Taste god? Of course not. Reasonable expectations are based on a foundation of evidence. Belief LACKS this completely. Please, for the sake of continual argument, draw a line between the two, as there is a vast disparity.

b. You must believe that the evidence that suggests the apples existence is true.

There is no need to believe, as upon the initial examination of this world, you begin to realize that there are standards of rule that the world follows. These standards of rule can the be extrapolated to all things within the tangible realm (reality). You view the apple as a fact of this world due to expectations derived from experiences that you've encountered from day one of birth. When I first touched an apple, I didn't need faith. I simply crawled over and smacked it around then found my crib and went to sleep. Can't do the same with god, bro.

c. When you breath in while reading this, you must believe that air will enter your lungs, because if you believe it won't, you won't attempt to breathe.

Nope. Expectation based on previous results. There is no need for faith. If I do stop breathing, then science is able to determine why I've stopped breathing. No faith/belief required.

d. You must believe that your assertion is true, or you would not have posted it.

Again, there is no belief here. What is deemed truth in this world is validated through scientific means (scientific method). And, before you go stating that beliefs, thoughts, etc can't be done through this, then allow me to take forceps and wipe away the nerve entanglements at your frontal lobe region. Kiss your "soul" goodbye. You're still living; however, now you are a shell of the "deep thinking" man you were previously. The brain's constructs give rise to all emotion (love, hate anger, progressive intelligence, etc). Everything in this world can be substantiate as truth on a physical basis -- even your ignorant love for a being that doesn't exist.

e. You must believe you are debating with Xrow, and that a college professor is not posing as me.

Again, expectation based on a foundation of evidence. Belief LACKS this completely. Please, for the sake of continual argument, draw a line between the two, as there is a vast disparity.

Finally, you must believe that the chair your sitting in will hold you, or you would not have sat down.
Almost everything you do requires some degree of belief ;|

LOL. I don't know how many times I've encountered this argument in real-life with one of my fundy friends. Again, this requires no belief at all, rather, reasonable expectations based on conclusive evidence to the contrary.

Xrow, why are you atheist towards all other ways of life, save one -- your own? If you have no evidence for your belief, then all beliefs (RELIGIONS) are equally valid. Get owned? .

[Optimism]

5000 character limit -- RAGE.

Example:

You have a box in your hand. You tell me that inside the box there is a unicorn. I look inside the box and there is nothing there.
You tell me that it is invisible. I feel around around the box, and nothing is there. You tell me that it is intangible. I say that a unicorn couldn't fit inside that box.
You tell me it is a miniature unicorn. I tell you I can't hear/ or smell said unicorn, you tell me to have "faith" that it is there.

Please explain to me why I should?

This is far too inadequate an example to be used in reference to reality ;\.
That would be like me handing you a glass of water and asking how it could evolve into a human.

So, your entire belief system is inadequate and not a part of reality? I seriously lol'd for 3 minutes.

If you still don't understand the previous post, then I'll elaborate in simpler terms:

You and I are in the middle of a restaurant (Steak n' Shake). We are having this debate. I tell you that there is a stark difference between belief and expectations. I elaborate further that expectations are based on sound observations/experiment and conclude that belief is based on faith (lack of sound observations/experiment). I then propose the following experiment with two 500 lb weights, four 200 lb weights, ten 100 lb weights and 40 50 lb weights, 20 5 lb weights, 40 2.5 lb weights, etc. A large platform is in the room that is placed on the chair, along with a crane to lift these weights (there is no roof on this restaurant [haha]). I then determine the maximum weight that one four-leg chair within Steak n' Shake can hold. I then repeat this experiment with an exact replica of the first. I then do the same for the next 5 chairs and determine that the chairs functionality (me sitting within it) can be maintained until a load of 521 lbs + or - 10 lbs. I then take everyone in the restaurant, bring them over to the final chair and state that based on the previous experiment that we've all witnessed, this chair will maintain your weight. We all sit it in and, surely, it does. I then ask you to do the same with regard to your god. You don't have the slightest proposition as to how. Prayer? We all pray and ask to be spoken to, for it to show itself, etc. Nothing occurs. This is the difference between expectation and belief. Please, don't forget it. Keep in mind, these stress tests were already performed before the chairs were shipped out to good ol' Steak N' Shake. If you still fail to understand this, then there is a stark difference between how you and I perceive the world (myself logical, while yourself illogical). You maintain these illogical concepts in an attempt to validate something that is in every way, not able to be validated (illogical). Stop being such a scared and frightened child and accept the truth this world presents to you.

[ZeroUH]

I would like to see Opt and Xrow drunk, on the same place one day...with a cam, of course.

[Allie]

You and I are in the middle of a restaurant (Steak n' Shake). We are having this debate. I tell you that there is a stark difference between belief and expectations. I elaborate further that expectations are based on sound observations/experiment and conclude that belief is based on faith (lack of sound observations/experiment). I then propose the following experiment with two 500 lb weights, four 200 lb weights, ten 100 lb weights and 40 50 lb weights, 20 5 lb weights, 40 2.5 lb weights, etc. A large platform is in the room that is placed on the chair, along with a crane to lift these weights (there is no roof on this restaurant [haha]). I then determine the maximum weight that one four-leg chair within Steak n' Shake can hold. I then repeat this experiment with an exact replica of the first. I then do the same for the next 5 chairs and determine that the chairs functionality (me sitting within it) can be maintained until a load of 521 lbs + or - 10 lbs. I then take everyone in the restaurant, bring them over to the final chair and state that based on the previous experiment that we've all witnessed, this chair will maintain your weight. We all sit it in and, surely, it does. I then ask you to do the same with regard to your god. You don't have the slightest proposition as to how. Prayer? We all pray and ask to be spoken to, for it to show itself, etc. Nothing occurs. This is the difference between expectation and belief. Please, don't forget it. Keep in mind, these stress tests were already performed before the chairs were shipped out to good ol' Steak N' Shake. If you still fail to understand this, then there is a stark difference between how you and I perceive the world (myself logical, while yourself illogical). You maintain these illogical concepts in an attempt to validate something that is in every way, not able to be validated (illogical). Stop being such a scared and frightened child and accept the truth this world presents to you.

I read it yet I didn't understand it in the least.

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true". That's what they call reality. However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms. Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. Everyone is living by their own assumptions.

The earth being flat was our own convenient assumption a few hundred years ago. So no one can say one belief is wrong and one belief is right. We all have our own beliefs. No one can say faith isn't real and cannot be a basis for anything. So in essence, this whole topic is based on conflicting beliefs, not on anything else.

Did you copy/paste this speech from MSN? I think you gave this exact speech to me when I trolled you for believing in god.

Example: I see an apple on the end of my desk, now whether I believe it is there or not, there is evidence of its existence.
Thus, there is an apple on my table. Not at all faith, only facts.  

You see an apple at the end of a desk.
Can you prove it's there without touching it?

You see a soda machine in the middle of the desert.
Can you prove it's there without touching it?

[Optimism]

Thousands of possibilities are available to validate somethings existence without using the 5 senses. This is why new science is hard to grasp and accept as true (example: evidence substantiating the Big Bang theory). It relies on technology able to pick up energy that isn't within our realm of distinction. Silly Allie.

[Allie]

Shut up, I can't see, touch, hear, smell or touch you, therefore you do not exist.

[Optimism]

Shut up, I can't see, touch, hear, smell or touch you, therefore you do not exist.

Which is the burdensome wall that intellects must climb when talking to individuals who haven't actually dabbled within their field (understanding the equipments capabilities).

>.>

[Xrow]

I'll be out with friends until tomorrow, I'll refute you later.

The simple answer:

1. Definition of Belief:
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Consider this: You don't truly know that you will wake up tomorrow morning, or that you will even fall asleep. You must believe that you will not experience a fatal heart attack before going to bed or before waking up. Why do you believe this? Because of cognitive certainty. You cannot know something before it happens, you must believe it.
If you believe that belief is not necessary, then you have settled with believing in lack of belief.

[Optimism]

I'll be out with friends until tomorrow, I'll refute you later.

The simple answer:

1. Definition of Belief:
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.
Consider this: You don't truly know that you will wake up tomorrow morning, or that you will even fall asleep. You must believe that you will not experience a fatal heart attack before going to bed or before waking up. Why do you believe this? Because of cognitive certainty. You cannot know something before it happens, you must believe it.
If you believe that belief is not necessary, then you have settled with believing in lack of belief.

lol? Firstly, I've never thought about having a heart attack before going to sleep, nor do I need any consoling factors to continue living.

...

For the sake of argument, then lets divide belief into two sub-categories -- that which is required of religious followers and that which is required for daily life. The stark difference remains. I have the capacity to worry if I will wake or not wake tomorrow morning based on my experiences (I'm alive -- I can experience emotion [i.e., fear]). Moreover, this fear is only substantiated through countless previous nights of myself waking up, repetitively. Religious belief is exempt of the aforesaid, i.e., god doesn't present itself in a way that can be experienced by any human being.

...

That being said, I expect to wake the next morning without suffering a heart attack because of how I've lived my life (food choices, exercise, etc.) Again, reasonable expectation. Notice, the word reason within that statement. God nor religion is reason, nor logic, as it requires faith. A belief founded WITHOUT evidence of any form.

...

Lastly, again, for the sake of argument, I believe things everyday. This doesn't change the fact that your god is devoid of empirical evidence (religion). My nighttime fears of midnight death are at the very least, founded on events that occur within this reality -- death.

Pillars of stone (night time fears) vs. Pillars of sand (religion). The pillars being the foundation for belief. Your belief crumbles under scrutiny. Understand? Good.

[Allie]

2. Everything you do requires belief, otherwise you would not have done it.

Iunno about you, but I'd never given myself a heart attack, thus I'm not doing it, thus if I get a heart attack, I didn't consciously give it to myself purposely.
/I can't explain what I mean correctly, someone help?

[Lyric_]

Okay, so I touch the apple, taste the apple, smell the apple, and see the apple.

I have now used 4 deferent senses to see whether or not the apple is real or not.

I would rather take my chances of this apple being real, than you telling me that there is a unicorn in a box that I cannot hear/smell/taste/see/touch.



If I am wrong, then according to your beliefs, I will die and suffer for being free.

Worshiping religion is nothing more than an egotistical dictatorship.