[GavinGill]

"I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect." - Oscar Wilde

@ Which ever post that makes it applicable.

[Allie]

That goes for absolute truth too:
Whether the absolute truth for you is different than the absolute truth to someone else, the fact remains that only one of those "absolute truths" are the actual "absolute truth".

[Xrow]

Wait.. You still believe in the relativity of truth?

[Allie]

I never did.
I just say the opposite of what you do for the sake of a fun debate.
My real beliefs are different than what I post.

[Lyric_]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

[Xrow]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

[zepher2211]

Mustyou persist in this argument over the forum? I understand you're within the rules but it's better done over pm or msn as you tend to ignore other comments then your own and opti/xrow's :/

[Lyric_]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

If you have already set my path for me, then yes.

[Allie]

God made you- knows every single move you will make up until you die.

How is that not controlling?


Say I made a railroad track, and put a train on it, the train would follow these tracks until the end.

There is no free will there, only what god sculpted for you to do.

o.O.
If I make a maze with 15 equally possible endings and put a mouse at the beginning, am I choosing what he does?

If you have already set my path for me, then yes.

But the path isn't set for us.

Let's say I came from 20 years in the future.
I know what you're going to do and when you're gonna do it because I come from the future.
So does this mean I control you and you have no free will?

[Optimism]

Are both I and lyric the only two intelligent individuals left on this forum?

It doesn't matter how many possible choices there are if god understands and KNOWS the choice that will be made. If there are 15 choices to be made and he doesn't know what choice will be made, then he is not a god, as he is not omniscient. You are forgetting this fact. This is a substantiated proof, as it is understood as the paradox of free will. It isn't up for debate. You simply lack the capacity to understand it. Let me try one last time.

There are 15 choices to make. You make 1 choice. If an omnipotent, omniscient god exists, then he knew the choice you would make billions of years before you would make it (infinitely longer, actually). Because he knows what choice you will make, there is, in actuality, only one choice that you could ever possibly choose. It merely seems as if there are a number of choices to make. This is the disconnect here between you two. A god cannot be a god if there is free will. If free will exists, then the god as you know him (omniscient and omnipotent) does not exist.

In other words, if destiny exists (god outlines your entire life and knows everything that ever will occur), then free will does not exist, as the choices you make have already been determined through the all knowing being that is "god". If there are two choices and he does not know which you will make, then he is not god. If he knows which choice you will make, then he is god, and the second choice only appears as a choice to yourself, not god.

[Xrow]

Well, your being an idiot at the moment.
Lets pretend for a second that Christianity and Atheism are the only two beliefs on earth.

YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF CHRISTIANITY.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF ATHEISM.

IF CHRISTIANITY IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.
IF ATHEISM IS TRUE, I AM CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

THAT IS F**KING FREE WILL.

Simply put: Regardless which one is true, ONE OF US IS CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

[Optimism]

Well, your being an idiot at the moment.
Lets pretend for a second that Christianity and Atheism are the only two beliefs on earth.

YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF CHRISTIANITY.
I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES EXIST. THIS IS FREE WILL ACTING IN DEFIANCE OF ATHEISM.

IF CHRISTIANITY IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.
IF ATHEISM IS TRUE, I AM CHOOSING TO DEFY IT.

THAT IS F**KING FREE WILL.

Let me break it down for you further. I choose to believe in Christianity day 1 through day 4032 4 hours 32 minutes and 83.999823892389238923892389238998293892892389238999999999999 repeating for infinity. I then choose to follow atheistic tenants from this day onward for the remainder of my life. This is all predetermined and there isn't any other possible choice throughout my life because god knows all this to be true before I even came into creation itself. It only APPEARS that I have free will; however, it is known by god that I would turn from Christianity on a specific date and time and remain an atheist for the remainder of my life. This is the entire point you idiot -- god knows EXACTLY how my life will play out. I do not; therefore, I perceive myself to be making choices, but in reality, this was the only choice, as destiny has already been determined as such by god. If god does not know my destiny (every decision I will make), then he is not god and free will exists. But, as stated previously, if a god exists that is all powerful and all knowing, then he knows the choices I will make every milisecond of my life without fail. There are no other options, or he would NOT BE ALL KNOWING. You can claim free will, but if you do, then your god is a failure of a god, as he doesn't know what choice I will make. Therefore, he has a weakness and isn't a god.

For christ sake, think about it dumbass.

[Xrow]

Do you really think I haven't considered it, Opti? >_>
Your being completely illogical. I've already explained why free will absolutely has to exist universally.

Use your brain.

[Optimism]

You pick up a hamburger and are deciding the following:

To eat it or not to eat it or to not eat it and feed it to your seeing eye dog.

I, Tyler am secretly god and know exactly what you are going to do, as I sit beside of you as a friend. I watch you think intensely about what you are going to do. I snicker to myself knowing exactly what you are going to do, given I am all knowing and all powerful -- I know you will feed it to your dog.

Sure enough, 15 rough minutes later, while you sat there deciding, you feed it to your dog. You think you have free will, while I know that you do not, as I understand and KNOW what choice you will make before it is made.

Free will?

NAWP.

[Xrow]

KNOWLEDGE: Definition:
(1) : having or reflecting knowledge, information, or intelligence
(2) : acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things

CONTROLLING: Definition:
(1) : to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command
(2) : to hold in check; curb: to control a horse; to control one's emotions