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Oh King...

Started by Optimism, January 01, 2011, 02:08:10 AM

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Optimism

In light of your "omfg that is an amazing quote" -- I propose the following read:

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/what-every-atheist-should-say-to-god%E2%80%A6-if-judgment-day-actually-happens

**** you god. **** you.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

zomniethe4

Thought atheist don't believe in god.

Zom

Optimism

Quote from: zomniethe4 on January 01, 2011, 02:10:36 AM
Thought atheist don't believe in god.

"Hypoxia induced coma."
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

zomniethe4


Zom

Allie

Allie is an atheist, thus comments on this issue.

Optimism

Quote from: Allie on January 01, 2011, 07:17:32 AM
Allie is an atheist, thus comments on this issue.

Yay XD.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Pokeh


Xrow

I'll read it when I have time.
Your atheism reminded of of this quote, though:

"God is dead." -Nietzsche
Nietzsche is a famous ATHEIST.
GOD is dead?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
LOL?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?
GOD?

Xrow

Hopefully I'll learn something reasonable.

"But what if you're wrong?" So goes the common questions posed to atheists by Christians. Putting aside for a moment the obvious retort (what if they are wrong and another religion is right?) I decided to really organize my thoughts a bit. What would I say if I was wrong, the Christians were right, and a moment after dying I found myself before the blinding majesty of Yahweh with Christ at his right hand? Actually, this is a fair question.
Atheists: If your right, cool, you become a tree. If your wrong, you go to hell.
Christians: If your right, cool, you are handed eternal perfection under a perfect God in heaven. If your wrong, you fall to the same fate as the atheists.
Who has more to lose?



Oh. Oh dear. I see. Well, I guess this is about as close to incontrovertible evidence for your existence as I could have ever demanded.  Actually, as a good skeptic I pray you won't get offended if I entertain the possibility that I'm experiencing a hypoxia-induced hallucination.  But, I'll just go along with this for now.

I'm not going to kneel or anything if you don't mind.  That would kind of be shutting the barn door after the cows have run out, don't you think? Hes saying that its pointless to kneel because hes already going to hell?  Besides: by your will, I was thrust into life in a very undignified manner and state, so the least you could do would be to let me leave it in better circumstances.  And really, that would be the very, very least you could do.  You know, now that the initial shock of being dead is starting to wear off, I find myself getting angry.  I'm trying to restrain it, but this whole situation is... absurd.  According to most accounts, this is the part where you judge me.  Who the hell are you to be a moral judge?  You're a sadistic, genocidal sex-obsessed tyrant. What..? This man is a good writer, but seriously what the f*ck was that..?  All my life, I laughed off those Christians who accused me of "hating God".  Like I told them, it wasn't that I hated you; I just genuinely didn't think you existed. If that is true, then both Christians and atheists will become trees. If not, the two meet extremely different fates.  But I did hate the idea of you.  I didn't see evidence to believe in any gods, but you in particular seemed like a logical contradiction.  I was glad that the Bible was a work of-seeming-fiction because the belief that all of the most terrible things in the world were, at the worst, designed by or, at the best, permitted by an all-powerful conscious being was too horrible to not hate.  It's oddly refreshing to find that all this time I was outraged at something more tangible.

Or is this the part where your grand plan is revealed, your "mysterious ways" made clear? Will you say the magic words and suddenly I'll understand how a child being raped, murdered, and left in a ditch fits in with you infinite benevolence?  Will starvation and disease make sense? The reason for these things is so that humans can achieve morality. Without immorality, morality cannot exist. Without bad, there can be no good. Without choices, there can be no choosing - in this case, between good and evil; between God and Satan. There is no point in making a people so they have no free will, but it makes all the sense in the world to allow them to choose for themselves. Because you know, I don't think I want them to make sense.  If that's part of your omniscient knowledge, then I don't want that part. I guess its fitting:  humanity's first act of defiance was to want knowledge to be more like you.  Then let my last act of defiance be choosing ignorance so that I can be as unlike you as possible. He'll be in hell, so no need. On another tangent, humans have been trying their hardest to be more and more like God for eternity.

This is all perfectly futile.  You know me better than anyone.  You know my mind. You know how I thought. You know – and had the power over- all the circumstances in my life that meant you very existence seemed impossible to me.  After all, you "knit me together in my mother's womb," didn't you?  So am I just a casualty of free will, then?  You wanted worship from people who could choose to worship you and, to satisfy your ego, decided it was a fair price to create people whom you knew wouldn't choose you and would face eternal torture for it. Sigh, refer to my former point. There would be no point in making anyone if they didn't have truly free will; thus some must have the ability to deny Him, although they too can change. The author of this work was not predestined to deny Christ, but he does because he chooses to. If he so chose, he could accept Christ and his argument would thus be null.  You know, even if almost everything had been perfect, a world free from pain and death where everyone would freely choose to spend an eternity with you – except for one person, and yet you made him anyways... then you would still be infinitely more evil than all the worst of humanity combined. Why? Would it not be infinitesimally more evil to disallow free will altogether? Forcing a choice on someone is better than allowing them to chose for themselves? If your atheistic beliefs are indeed false, and you end up in hell, it was your willful - and most likely self righteous - choice to do so. You denied God and believed, by means of free will, in what you WANTED to believe in. Would it not be more evil to rip that choice from your grasp, thus condemning you to believe that what you most ardently pursue is a lie?  You're going to judge me? On behalf of all that's good and decent in your creation, I judge you. I may have been a willful child, but you were a terrible father.

I can't say I'm really inclined to beg for my soul now, given what I said about you knowing me perfectly.  Even so, supposing mercy's still an option (and that last rant didn't kill my chances), I guess it's worth a shot.  I can't pretend I have any love for you, but no principle is worth being damned over if it can be helped.  What shall I say in my defense?

I tried to be good without you.  You told your followers to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and visit the sick.  I did those things, not because you told me to or because I thought I was "storing up treasure in heaven".  I did them for their own sake, for the sake of my neighbors.  When I saw suffering, I tried to help instead of saying a quick prayer to you and believing I'd done something.  And when I didn't help and suffering continued, I held myself responsible instead of concluding it was just your divine will.

And I was content with one life- in fact, despite how terrible life could be, I was usually quite grateful to have one.  I didn't demand more.  I was content to create my own meaning in the meaningless chaos, to find love in all the pain, to find the beautiful simplicity in the apparent complexity.  And I have to say, you may have failed basic ethics but you sure had a deft hand when it came to creating the cosmos – not least because you did it in such a way as to make yourself seem irrelevant.  The splendor of the night sky, the incredible diversity of life, everything.  Quantum mechanics? That was crazy, I loved it!  And relativity?  You were on a roll that day, really.  I saw nearly all of your creation for what it was:  wonderful.  I didn't look at an exquisitely intricate world and call it fallen.  I didn't look at a newborn baby and call it sinful.  I didn't look at my seemingly finite life and call it inadequate.

So you created us because you desired companionship and love?  Well then, you needed me.  But I didn't need you.  I grew up and took responsibility for my own life.  If that really is the greatest crime of all, then there's nothing more I can say.  The deck was stacked against me, but honestly, I can't truly say I have any regrets.  Heaven, hell, oblivion... your move, God.

Though I still think I'm probably hallucinating.


This was kind of a weird essay to read, honestly. It was obscure and seemed to be comprised mostly of random rantings, although the author is am interesting writer.

I guess my main question for you now is:

What would it hurt to believe in God?

Allie

Quote from: Xrow on January 01, 2011, 08:05:56 PM
What would it hurt to believe in God?[/color]

Iunno, my life?
It's a wasted life to believe in such a contradiction, especially if you devote your life to it.
I feel bad for those who spend hours every day trying to please something that contradicts science.

Allie will let Opti take over from here.

Optimism

January 01, 2011, 09:03:50 PM #10 Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 09:27:01 PM by Optimism
It wasn't a random rant; you have to be familiar with the human condition to understand the implications within his writing. You aren't familiar with the human condition (I'm sure you're asking yourself "what the **** is the human condition").

Also, I can 100 percent guarantee you a god associated with the Christian religion (or any religion) is incorrect. Now, what I cannot prove is a generalized god not existing (a god not associated with religion).

A god intertwined with any religion is simply not possible given the countless moral contradictions and error filled, illogical bed-time stories confluent within any scripture of any religion. Man wrote text, so it is only natural that contradictions are inherent within it.

King, your god is all-powerful and all knowing. Simply because this statement is believed true by all Christians, your god, associated with Christianity can't possibly be. Why? You figure that one out (hint, take a look around you).

http://godisimaginary.com/

Read through these, and emancipate yourself from the ignorant life-style you lead. Good luck giving a rebuttal to these simple logical statements derived from a former believer that understands the implications of scriptural contradiction like my **** knows your own mother :).

There is a great quote king, to further allie's statement and it is the following: "Two hands put to task is far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Religion hinders human progress. Simple. I can almost guarantee you, because you are a Christian, you are anti-gay and anti-woman's rights regarding the birthing process. Depending on the strengths of your extrinsically acquired morals, its safe to say that you may even deny a woman an abortion if she was raped by her own father. This is the entire problem -- you derive morality from an external source; I derive my morals from my objective view on the world and a holistic perspective, taking into consideration the "what if I was in this persons shoes". Many, if not all Christians, are incapable of entertaining such thoughts, which ultimately benefit humanity.

I correct your fallacious mindset, yet you continue to make open-ended fallacies. Free will? You have no free will if an all knowing, all powerful (omniscient; omnipotent) god exists. Reason: paradox of free will (I've explained this to you before).

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://atheismresource.com/wp-content/uploads/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psyche.com/psyche/links/recent.html&usg=__ddy4JzMe2njAu0KjdHutp9bLbts=&h=1031&w=720&sz=378&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=GGryAmtxiGcIfM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbefore%2Bdebating%2Ba%2Bchristian%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D692%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=668&ei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&oei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0&tx=65&ty=59

I'm following this with you from this point forward.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

Quote from: Optimism on January 01, 2011, 09:03:50 PM
It wasn't a random rant; you have to be familiar with the human condition to understand the implications within his writing. You aren't familiar with the human condition (I'm sure you're asking yourself "what the **** is the human condition").

Also, I can 100 percent guarantee you a god associated with the Christian religion (or any religion) is incorrect. Now, what I cannot prove is a generalized god not existing (a god not associated with religion).

A god intertwined with any religion is simply not possible given the countless moral contradictions and error filled, illogical bed-time stories confluent within any scripture of any religion. Man wrote text, so it is only natural that contradictions are inherent within it.

King, your god is all-powerful and all knowing. Simply because this statement is believed true by all Christians, your god, associated with Christianity can't possibly be. Why? You figure that one out (hint, take a look around you).

http://godisimaginary.com/

Read through these, and emancipate yourself from the ignorant life-style you lead. Good luck giving a rebuttal to these simple logical statements derived from a former believer that understands the implications of scriptural contradiction like my **** knows your own mother :).

There is a great quote king, to further allie's statement and it is the following: "Two hands put to task is far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Religion hinders human progress. Simple. I can almost guarantee you, because you are a Christian, you are anti-gay and anti-woman's rights regarding the birthing process. Depending on the strengths of your extrinsically acquired morals, its safe to say that you may even deny a woman an abortion if she was raped by her own father. This is the entire problem -- you derive morality from an external source; I derive my morals from my objective view on the world and a holistic perspective, taking into consideration the "what if I was in this persons shoes". Many, if not all Christians, are incapable of entertaining such thoughts, which ultimately benefit humanity.

I correct your fallacious mindset, yet you continue to make open-ended fallacies. Free will? You have no free will if an all knowing, all powerful (omniscient; omnipotent) god exists. Reason: paradox of free will (I've explained this to you before).

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://atheismresource.com/wp-content/uploads/Debate-Flow-Chart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.psyche.com/psyche/links/recent.html&usg=__ddy4JzMe2njAu0KjdHutp9bLbts=&h=1031&w=720&sz=378&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=GGryAmtxiGcIfM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbefore%2Bdebating%2Ba%2Bchristian%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D692%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=668&ei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&oei=O8YfTZ2OJ5PWnAflosXWDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0&tx=65&ty=59

I'm following this with you from this point forward.


The human condition, as I understand it, is everything a human experiences within his/her mortal life.

You can 100% guarantee all you want, you can not provide proof.

Good, I am glad a God not associated with religion is possible. I don't consider Christianity a religion, but a belief and a lifestyle.

Examples of these Contradictions?

"Two hands put to task *are far more beneficial than a thousand clasped together in prayer." Nice quote with a typo.

Religion also installs moral boundaries.

I am anti-homosexual because being homosexual intercourse is a massive source of STDs and other physical ailments. I am anti-abortion because it is murder.

Rape is the only realistic exception.

Of course I can entertain these thoughts, but regardless of the teachings of the Bible, I pursue the beliefs I have put forth. Murder of babies is wrong to me. Is it right to you? That is the problem with you, you believe your right even when logic tells you the opposite.

Of course we have free will.
Your statements are full of fallacy, and I will correct you now.
We have the FREE WILL to choose not to murder a defenseless child.
We have the FREE WILL to disallow gay marriage and look down on gay sex.
We have the FREE WILL to have sex before marriage or to wait.
You have the FREE WILL to become an atheist, regardless of what the Bible teaches.
I have the FREE WILL to think you a fool.
We all have free will. I just chose to snap my fingers and take a sip of my Arnold Palmer. No guiding hand is holding a glass to my lips. You give me examples of various instances of free will, and then you deny its exisstence. If you would like to contradict yourself further,
go right ahead.


Optimism

But if god is all knowing and all powerful, how do you have free will if he knows what you will do before you do it? In other words, your life is predetermined -- every decision, every detail. If not, your god isn't all knowing. Its a contradiction; a paradox. By the definition of your god, you have no such thing. Christianity is a religion -- don't rationalize the opposite. Answer your damn PM.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

Xrow

January 01, 2011, 11:24:01 PM #13 Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 11:38:33 PM by Optimism
Quote from: Optimism on January 01, 2011, 11:11:29 PM
But if god is all knowing and all powerful, how do you have free will if he knows what you will do before you do it? In other words, your life is predetermined -- every decision, every detail. If not, your god isn't all knowing. Its a contradiction; a paradox. By the definition of your god, you have no such thing. Christianity is a religion -- don't rationalize the opposite. Answer your damn PM.

Just because He knows what I will do doesn't mean he is controlling whether or not I do it.
Oh I haz a PM? One sec.

By the way, weren't we having a debate about truth being absolute or relative?

Optimism


...if he knows your future, he knows your path; therefore, he knows whatever decision you make before you make it. Thus, you have no free will, as it is pre-determined. If you can't understand this, then I'm sorry.

Only certain facets of life lack absolute truth. The mechanisms of action of select medications have been documented as absolute truth. If you're dying of a heart attack, beta blockers/nitrate/ace inhibitors, etc. will be given to save your life.

I zoned out and accidentally put my response in your post. Fail lulz.
- Opti -
- Sanctuary Founder | PvP King -
- Retired -

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